A Political Thread pt. 2

[ncurd]

There is no grey area the border of Ukraine's border with Russia was established in 1991 and a treaty established in 2003 between the two countries (Putin was President). Twice since then 2014 and 2022 Russia has invaded that border through force with almost zero diplomatic attempts.

 

[dirty harry]

Have you got the link to that 1% please? Genuinely interested

It was pulled out of my bum to highlight a tiny % of hundreds of billions is still massive money.

Google the Pentagon looking for 100million missing dollars, should be a good start, and can diveninto whatever sources you trust from there

 

[dirty harry]

There is no grey area the border of Ukraine's border with Russia was established in 1991 and a treaty established in 2003 between the two countries (Putin was President). Twice since then 2014 and 2022 Russia has invaded that border through force with almost zero diplomatic attempts.

And why did they do that? I've read Putins reasoning due to Nato breaking the treatment with its expansion...

You can claim Russia is just a big evil who wants to cause war, but they have reasoning, from Ukranian leadership changing, NATO neutrality changing, a revolution that endangered lives etc...

I'm not claiming how accurate these reasonings are, but it's not good vs evil. The waters are merky.

 

[dirty harry]

There is no grey area the border of Ukraine's border with Russia was established in 1991 and a treaty established in 2003 between the two countries (Putin was President). Twice since then 2014 and 2022 Russia has invaded that border through force with almost zero diplomatic attempts.

Well Crimea has a complex history, disputed by different people. 2014s revolution kicked off that invasion, and claimed genocide and naziism combined with a multitude of other reasons for 2022.

The treaties were deemed to have been broken already but Putin and his allies.

I can't believe I'm here defending rationale for Russias actions, purely because I made the statement 'there is never good and evil, there is always nuance' hahahahaha

Do you guys think this way of everything?

Let's pivot this to a differing contentious issue, let's say trans people's participation in sports (or any other issue you fancy tbh).

Do you guys think that is straight forward right and wrong also? Genuinely fascinated

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And why did they do that? I've read Putins reasoning due to Nato breaking the treatment with its expansion...

You can claim Russia is just a big evil who wants to cause war, but they have reasoning, from Ukranian leadership changing, NATO neutrality changing, a revolution that endangered lives etc...

I'm not claiming how accurate these reasonings are, but it's not good vs evil. The waters are merky.

Putin's reasoning is false though, there was never any sort of treaty about NATO not expanding. All the claims about this were from what people said, never anything actually put into treaties.

Russia keeps ignoring that NATO expanded because countries that used to be ruled by the Soviets requested it, it wasn't aggressive. The current situation kinda proves why they wanted to, Russia never really dropped it's expansionist attitude.

Russia also conveniently always leave out how much they were meddling in Ukraine long before the west did.

 

[dirty harry]

Putin's reasoning is false though, there was never any sort of treaty about NATO not expanding. All the claims about this were from what people said, never anything actually put into treaties.

Russia keeps ignoring that NATO expanded because countries that used to be ruled by the Soviets requested it, it wasn't aggressive. The current situation kinda proves why they wanted to, Russia never really dropped it's expansionist attitude.

Russia also conveniently always leave out how much they were meddling in Ukraine long before the west did.

You use the term expansionist, but didn't Putin give a number of islands to China a few decades ago?

Also isn't the claim that returning these regions to Russian control? I mean expansionist could refer to the west economically, like the US getting access to Ukranian resources?

Again I'm not defending putin my base knowledge of the region isn't high, I'm far from an expert, and there's lots we, and indeed experts don't know about the global jostling In the region. I'm merely making the claim Corbyns attitudes toward Russia weren't far off the mark

 

[Saintjay]

Well Crimea has a complex history, disputed by different people. 2014s revolution kicked off that invasion, and claimed genocide and naziism combined with a multitude of other reasons for 2022.

The treaties were deemed to have been broken already but Putin and his allies.

I can't believe I'm here defending rationale for Russias actions, purely because I made the statement 'there is never good and evil, there is always nuance' hahahahaha

Do you guys think this way of everything?

Let's pivot this to a differing contentious issue, let's say trans people's participation in sports (or any other issue you fancy tbh).

Do you guys think that is straight forward right and wrong also? Genuinely fascinated

I guess you have mitigation \ justification but it then depends on if the mitigation etc is seen as reasonable. It's on that the opions tend to very. Russia invading Afgan vs the US and allies doing for it example

On somethings you do have a clear divide between good and evil. Some times people and events are really just evil. Not every thing is nuanced.

 

[ncurd]

Well Crimea has a complex history, disputed by different people. 2014s revolution kicked off that invasion, and claimed genocide and naziism combined with a multitude of other reasons for 2022.

I mean you know the "revolution" was kicked off by

Any substantive claims to genocide or Nazism?

Lets put it this way was any for democracy and/or diplomacy tried before force was used? Examples of countries/areas that have one down that route Northern Ireland/Ulster, Scotland & Catalonia. All of which can have a more substantive claim to some using force to free them. Yet I don't think anyone would condone it all.

Is there any evidence the people in region taken by Russia through force were being suppressed by Ukrainian authorities at all?

 

[ncurd]

I guess you have mitigation \ justification but it then depends on if the mitigation etc is seen as reasonable. It's on that the opions tend to very. Russia invading Afgan vs the US and allies doing for example

On somethings you do have a clear divide between good and evil. Some times people and events are really just evil.

You have invoke Godwin's Law here its an extreme example but you can't pretend in some cases there just isn't some grey area.

 

[odw26]

Scotland & Catalonia

Damn them Catalonians, they're ruining Scotland.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You use the term expansionist, but didn't Putin give a number of islands to China a few decades ago?

Also isn't the claim that returning these regions to Russian control? I mean expansionist could refer to the west economically, like the US getting access to Ukranian resources?

Again I'm not defending putin my base knowledge of the region isn't high, I'm far from an expert, and there's lots we, and indeed experts don't know about the global jostling In the region. I'm merely making the claim Corbyns attitudes toward Russia weren't far off the mark

More China has simply claimed then as belonging to China but please link it if you are referring to a different issue as I may not be aware if the case you're talking about.

Depends how you feel about the idea of it being "returned". Ukraine became independent in an internationally recognised treaty. A country can't unilaterally decide to then go back on it and claim it again. It would be like Britain suddenly deciding that Ireland should be British again under the guise of regaining it. Despite the cultural similarities, the Ukrainian people seem themselves as a people distinct from Russians.

The issue I had with Corbyn is he seemed very quick to point out faults with the west (which were mostly fair tbh) but extremely slow to accept faults with ex communist dictatorships and the likes of Hamas.

I do believe he wanted to do the right thing but I feel he had a habit of being almost like the communist sympathisers of the past who turned a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in those regimes and essentially regurgitated pure propaganda.

 

[Saintjay]

You have invoke Godwin's Law here its an extreme example but you can't pretend in some cases there just isn't some grey area.

Tbh I wasn't thinking about Nazi's.

I might have this confused but I'm not saying that. In some cases I don't think you have grey areas, In some i think you do.

 

[ncurd]

Tbh I wasn't thinking about Nazi's.

I might have this confused but I'm not saying that. In some cases I don't think you have grey areas, In some i think you do.

I'm just pointing out an example of a clear no grey area issue.

I wasn't saying you were saying there are rarely grey areas which is demonstrably not true. I do think with Russia expansionism there is little grey area. Hell there's more grey in Israel/Palestine.

 

[McTallshort]

The big flag for me was Finland and Sweden applying for NATO membership after the invasion.

Two very neutral and liberal socialist nations apply to join an organisation they had stayed away from throughout the cold war.

If the invasion was about NATO then why didn't Russia attack Finland who it shares a border with?

If it was about saving Ethnic Russians from genocidal Nazis then why didn't the assist the Russians instead of seeing them as a massive threat?

Putin wanted this war, he had said so much many times and even wrote a white paper on it in 2021 when he claimed again that Ukraine wasn't a nation he recognised and should be part of Russia. When people say these things others should listen. He saw that the west was weak after withdrawing from Afghanistan and took what he thought was a golden moment to take back something he believed was his.

When the initial invasion happened he didn't mention NATO, the whole NATO thing came after when the initial invasion was a complete disaster. No country had joined NATO since 2004 and he hadn't made a fuss.

@dirty harry is right that there are grey areas etc in many things but I don't see it in Russia's pointless and destructive invasion of Ukraine. It was a land grab and is now something to keep the regime in power hence why they are absolutely not interested in stopping now.

Corbyn and people like him are good because they always ask that question "what about peace? Can we do a deal?" But with regards this I don't think there was any deal other than sign off Ukrainian sovereignty to keep the Russians from killing people.

 

[ncurd]

Corbyn and people like him are good because they always ask that question "what about peace? Can we do a deal?" But with regards this I don't think there was any deal other than sign off Ukrainian sovereignty to keep the Russians from killing people.

I think its more Ukraine was invaded and he was immediately criticising the West for giving them arms and support so they just didn't roll over.

I think peace is a laudable goal but you also can't just allow nations to invade other nations and go "ah well don't fight, peace is better"

 

[Saintjay]

I'm just pointing out an example of a clear no grey area issue.

I wasn't saying you were saying there are rarely grey areas which is demonstrably not true. I do think with Russia expansionism there is little grey area. Hell there's more grey in Israel/Palestine.

Yeah it's a fascinating debate how thousands of people were enabled, ok with doing evil things in Germany

You also have the debate on what is evil.

Both are to deep a topic for today I think

 

[Weldit]

The governments cuts on welfare...

It's alright telling people to go to work, but the sort of jobs out there simply don't pay enough for people to get by.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Meanwhile Republicans in Congress are trying to pass a law to make "trump derangement syndrome" a recognised medical condition and are also trying to engage in constitutional convention, which could allow them to rewrite the Constitution.

This hasn't come out of nowhere, this has all been years in planning. They are branding that who oppose these actions as having TDS. This is full on the act of a dictatorship, say you can do whatever you want and anyone who disagrees has a mental illness and can be put in an institution...

No doubt ***** like Chicago will either deny it or find it funny but this is a huge attack on democracy.

 

[dirty harry]

More China has simply claimed then as belonging to China but please link it if you are referring to a different issue as I may not be aware if the case you're talking about.

Depends how you feel about the idea of it being "returned". Ukraine became independent in an internationally recognised treaty. A country can't unilaterally decide to then go back on it and claim it again. It would be like Britain suddenly deciding that Ireland should be British again under the guise of regaining it. Despite the cultural similarities, the Ukrainian people seem themselves as a people distinct from Russians.

The issue I had with Corbyn is he seemed very quick to point out faults with the west (which were mostly fair tbh) but extremely slow to accept faults with ex communist dictatorships and the likes of Hamas.

I do believe he wanted to do the right thing but I feel he had a habit of being almost like the communist sympathisers of the past who turned a blind eye to the atrocities being committed in those regimes and essentially regurgitated pure propaganda.

Short answer is no, I have no definitive evidence of a lot of things, because a lot of issues have no definitive evidence. I read news, look at actions, look at agendas and try to make as best educated decision on what is going on as I can, and in most cases I can either empathise with both sides (to varying degrees) or I havnt the evidence to form strong opinions. It's why I don't believe in binary right and wrong, even in extreme cases.

Agree about Corbyn, he put himself into corners he couldn't ideologically back out of, and he probably wouldn't have made a great leader, but I like his idealism.

 

[dirty harry]

Tbh I wasn't thinking about Nazi's.

I might have this confused but I'm not saying that. In some cases I don't think you have grey areas, In some i think you do.

Which area do you think doesn't require context or nuance as an example?