A Political Thread pt. 2

[Becca]

But a transgender individual is a person who lives as the opposite to the sex they were assigned at birth and be treated as such (or someone in between). If your saying they can't be the opposite sex due to biology, you are litreally telling them they don't exist. No matter which way you cut it that's how they perceive what your telling them.

That might be what they perceive but it is not what I'm saying.
I'm saying I believe they exist as purely different individuals to males and females. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Yulia]

With that being said I wonder how many women and men are actually ok with a man "identifying" as a woman in their locker room or the locker room of their daughter

I actually have a very close experience:I'm going to very "female" dance classes where they have only one locker room [for women]. And there's one young man who started to visit it..I didn't ask him whether he identifies himself as a woman but he has pink hair and looks feminine...And it's actually not his fault that there's no other locker room. Yet it feels a bit weird and uncomfortable

 

[Saintjay]

Sorry been asked by multiple trans friends (both men and women) to speak up for them when these conversations come up. I have asked them many times if as a man if I should.

I'm sure the females on this forum appreciate a man telling them how they as females should think, feel and behave.

 

[ncurd]

That might be what they perceive but it is not what I'm saying.
I'm saying I believe they exist as purely different individuals to males and females. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Okay but again that's transphobia pure and simple. You are not accepting their right to be treated as a man or woman you are saying they are "other".

You're like the person who doesn't want to see men kiss in public and claim it's not homophobia.

I think there are conversations to have about safe spaces and sport. But we have to agree they should be treated as men or women where possible and not as other before those conversations can sensibly happen. Running around saying "biology trumps all" isn't the language of a person trying to find middle ground or nuance.

(We never talk about trans-men)

 

[AlRums]

I am not transphobic. They exist and have every right to.

So where do you stand on intersex and hermaphrodites bearing in mind there have both sexes combined in one form or another?

The ones where the only definition chromosomally can be different from men or women but can still characteristics and physical attributes of the opposite sex?

 

[AlRums]

You see? We are all wasting moments of our lives talking about Trans this and Trans that and not talking about income inequality, looming war in Europe and America siding with Russia over it's long term allies.

Left hand ladies and gentlemen left hand

Don't you'll start SPK off again about lefties and anti trump.

 

[Becca]

Hermaphrodites have both sex organs; they are a small group on their own.

 

[Sour Patch Kid]

Don't you'll start SPK off again about lefties and anti trump.

 

[ncurd]

I'm sure the females on this forum appreciate a man telling them how they as females should think, feel and behave.

I haven't told them once how to think, feel or behave. In fact I've been very cautious to not in everything I've said. I've confronted language and called it out for what it is. That's all.

I haven't said they can't hold transphobic views. I haven't even said they wrong (although implied it). All I've said is they are using language that denies to a group of people they exist and that's how they see it.

And I dint know why the women on this forum are a special category in this conversation. That like us men saying they can't hold an opinion on trans-men.

Oh wait it's the same damn conversation.

 

[AlRums]

I actually have a very close experience:I'm going to very "female" dance classes where they have only one locker room [for women]. And there's one young man who started to visit it..I didn't ask him whether he identifies himself as a woman but he has pink hair and looks feminine...And it's actually not his fault that there's no other locker room. Yet it feels a bit weird and uncomfortable

What's he supposed to do, change in the corridor. Women demanded the tight to be included in men's clubs and with their own facilities. When the boots on the other foot, they complain. It's been reported many times over the years.

In fact your very "one locker room [for women]" is the very definition of sexist, it is a unisex locker room if it is the only one.

 

[AlRums]

Hermaphrodites have both sex organs; they are a small group on their own.

So do intersex, only their definition is a bit wider.

Intersex - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You supported earlier a single definition, intersex and hermaphrodites throw that out the window. Is that what you are now saying? The singular definition are not empirical?

 

[Saintjay]

I haven't told them once how to think, feel or behave. In fact I've been very cautious to not in everything I've said. I've confronted language and called it out for what it is. That's all.

I haven't said they can't hold transphobic views. I haven't even said they wrong (although implied it). All I've said is they are using language that denies to a group of people they exist and that's how they see it.

And I dint know why the women on this forum are a special category in this conversation. That like us men saying they can't hold an opinion on trans-men.

Oh wait it's the same damn conversation.

No it's not what you say it's the way you have implied it.

I have no issue with you calling out what ever you wish. Ultimately it's how you perceived things. No different if you are perceived as sexist. It doesn't matter what you think or say or your intent it's the recipient's perception of those comments that matter.

 

[AlRums]

Mike Amesbury: MP jailed for 10 weeks for punching constituent

The MP was suspended by Labour after a video emerged showing him punching a man to the ground.

www.bbc.co.uk

Ahem, Prescott

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I actually have a very close experience:I'm going to very "female" dance classes where they have only one locker room [for women]. And there's one young man who started to visit it..I didn't ask him whether he identifies himself as a woman but he has pink hair and looks feminine...And it's actually not his fault that there's no other locker room. Yet it feels a bit weird and uncomfortable

this is an interesting point as its a real world example, has this person done anything to make you feel uncomfortable? approached you or comment on you for example?

 

[Yulia]

In fact your very "one locker room [for women]" is the very definition of sexist, it is a unisex locker room if it is the only one

Maybe I'm a sexist then,I don't know
But tbh I doubt the locker room was initially "unisex"... rather noone could think men will be visiting these dance classes.

 

[ncurd]

No it's not what you say it's the way you have implied it.

I have no issue with you calling out what ever you wish. Ultimately it's how you perceived things. No different if you are perceived as sexist. It doesn't matter what you think or say or your intent it's the recipient's perception of those comments that matter.

That's fair, I should note when having a conversation about trans people I rarely look it as lens of trans-women or trans-men but trans-people. I think once you get past that stage and start talking about cis safe spaces or sports you may get into specific genders.

As I also noted I had this conversation with trans friends where I did ask as a cis-white-het male should I even say anything? and they said I should which is why I do.

I'd rather we had trans people on this forum so they could speak for themselves.

 

[AlRums]

The two-state solution map that promised to solve Middle East crisis

In 2008, Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert urged the Palestinian leader to agree to a two-state solution. The map he drew has never been revealed to media - until now.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Yulia]

this is an interesting point as its a real world example, has this person done anything to make you feel uncomfortable? approached you or comment on you for example?

No, nothing at all,I must admit. But other women were shocked to see him in the beginning as well. One girl went out to change her dress in the toilet cabine. The rest was more "relaxed" because of his feminine look and pink hair

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I feel like it's unfair to brand someone transphobic who recognises a trans man / woman and a cis man / woman differently.

Studies show that a strong majority of cis gendered people, aren't interested in dating trans people and I find it hard to believe that's all rooted in hate / transphobia rather than their sexuality.

Sport is another area of society where trans and cis people should be considered different.

Equally, I think considering a cis person to be "biologically" their gender but a trans person not to be is transphobic. There's so many examples throughout history and across many regions of non traditional gender roles more closely aligned with transsexuality than homosexuality prior to the existance of reassignment surgery that is enough, for me, to prove it is nust as natural / biological, even if less common, than homosexuality.

In my head I'd consider "Man" and "Woman" as an umbrella term to describe both cis and trans people appropriately. Although I think because the number of trans people is so low it's fair for cis people to not have to expect to specify.

In my opinion, trans people deserve equity but equality across the board, as mentioned, is impossible because of certain areas of society where cis and trans groups have to be treated differently.

 

[ncurd]

No, nothing at all,I must admit. But other women were shocked to see him in the beginning as well. One girl went out to change her dress in the toilet cabine. The rest was more "relaxed" because of his feminine look and pink hair

There's a definite issue with how someone presents. I've known trans people who barely look like they've transitioned and those whom frankly unless you knew you wouldn't.

The problem with presenting is where do you and can you draw the line?

In that one instance you encountered there was a range of people with diffrent views.

I was at an event last year (extremely socially liberal group) and the changing rooms were labeled as No Male's and No Female's. People could if they wish book an individual time slot to use the changing rooms alone. But that worked in 72 hour event where time could be found not right before a dance class.