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A Political Thread pt. 2

Reiser99 said:
It's the most ridiculous argument. Well the others would be worse if they could. It happens in politics. "Well Labour would be worse." when there is no evidence to support this.

Hamas would commit genocide if they could, so they are worse than the ones currently committing genocide.
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This last bit I take issue with. Give Hamas the power of Israel and it is 1000x worse, for sure.
 
Reiser99 said:
It's the most ridiculous argument. Well the others would be worse if they could. It happens in politics. "Well Labour would be worse." when there is no evidence to support this.

Hamas would commit genocide if they could, so they are worse than the ones currently committing genocide.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's on the same level. If Hamas were in Israel's position, I don't doubt they would be going door to door rounding up the Jews and either killing them, jailing them or forcing them out of the country. Israel are doing similar in Gaza and the west bank but I don't think the level is quite the same.

Though they have lived in poor conditions, Arabs can live in Israel and I believe their numbers have even been growing (will need to double check as I may be confusing 2 different things) but there is a definite large Arab demographic. There would be no Jewish demographic in a Hamas state.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
I don't think it's on the same level. If Hamas were in Israel's position, I don't doubt they would be going door to door rounding up the Jews and either killing them, jailing them or forcing them out of the country. Israel are doing similar in Gaza and the west bank but I don't think the level is quite the same.

Though they have lived in poor conditions, Arabs can live in Israel and I believe their numbers have even been growing (will need to double check as I may be confusing 2 different things) but there is a definite large Arab demographic. There would be no Jewish demographic in a Hamas state.
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Agreed, they make up 20% of the Israeli population and Arab citizens have the same demographic right as Israelis.

There are still huge problems, but to pretend that it would be the same if the roles were reversed is willful ignorance.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
I don't think it's on the same level. If Hamas were in Israel's position, I don't doubt they would be going door to door rounding up the Jews and either killing them, jailing them or forcing them out of the country. Israel are doing similar in Gaza and the west bank but I don't think the level is quite the same.

Though they have lived in poor conditions, Arabs can live in Israel and I believe their numbers have even been growing (will need to double check as I may be confusing 2 different things) but there is a definite large Arab demographic. There would be no Jewish demographic in a Hamas state.
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I think this is part of the issue with Israel and voting rights for muslims. Given the sizable muslim population they fear any voting rights would see the rights of jews slowly eroded away.

I don't think there can be any doubt that minority groups Lbgtq, women etc are considerably safer in Israel. It wasn't that long ago even Egypt was expelling jews. The hamas / Palestine leader equaly has as little support dispite being 19 years into what was meant to be a four year term.
 
Reiser99 said:
It's the most ridiculous argument. Well the others would be worse if they could
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Did I say they'd be worse?

Just pointing out that the state of Israel is every bit as evil - as judged by its actions - as Hamas.
 
If Israel could get away with what Hamas would do given the opportunity, they would but the west needs to see them pretend not to be terrorists.

It's all hypothetical whataboutery aimed to distract from what the IDF and Israeli settlers are doing in Gaza and the West Bank though. There's no good v evil here, just two totally abhorrent organisations happy to watch innocent people murdered (or do it themselves) without a shred of human dignity left.
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
This last bit I take issue with. Give Hamas the power of Israel and it is 1000x worse, for sure.
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That's hypothetical. I'm not saying Hamas wouldn't be worse, but the reality is that Israel is the one with the power to commit genocide not Hamas. Israel needs to be held to account for it's actions and it's not, especially by the West. For me people arguing that Hamas 'would be worse' are trying to deflect from what Israel is actually doing.

Here's a different hypothetical for you. Neither Hamas nor the current Israeli government should be able to commit genocide, but only one would be held to account if they did.
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
This is nonsense - you have to take the motivation behind those actions into account.
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This is nonsense. Nothing makes genocide legitimate.
 
Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
This is nonsense - you have to take the motivation behind those actions into account.
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What's the motivation behind dropping a few bombs from an F-16 from 15,000 ft onto a known refugee camp?

Or the motivation behind knowingly stopping shipments of medicines and medical equipment?

Or the motivation behind telling Likud supporters to actively invest in Gaza to undermine the PA and encourage Hamas to power?
 
Reiser99 said:
That's hypothetical. I'm not saying Hamas wouldn't be worse, but the reality is that Israel is the one with the power to commit genocide not Hamas. Israel needs to be held to account for it's actions and it's not, especially by the West. For me people arguing that Hamas 'would be worse' are trying to deflect from what Israel is actually doing.

Here's a different hypothetical for you. Neither Hamas nor the current Israeli government should be able to commit genocide, but only one would be held to account if they did.

This is nonsense. Nothing makes genocide legitimate.
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Both sides should be held to account. I don't think Israels stated aim is to wipe every muslim, arab, Palestinian off the face of the planet.
Ironically Israel still has thousands of people who actually lived through a genocide and are surrounded by three states who wish for them to be wiped off the planet.
 
Saintjay said:
Both sides should be held to account. I don't think Israels stated aim is to wipe every muslim, arab, Palestinian off the face of the planet.
Ironically Israel still has thousands of people who actually lived through a genocide and are surrounded by three states who wish for them to be wiped off the planet.
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It may not be their stated aim, but they are certainly having a good go. Even if their aim isn't to kill 'every' Palestinian they certainly want to wipe any trace of Palestine off the map. Seem to remember that it's quite offensive to want to wipe a country off the map.
 
Saintjay said:
Both sides should be held to account. I don't think Israels stated aim is to wipe every muslim, arab, Palestinian off the face of the planet.
Ironically Israel still has thousands of people who actually lived through a genocide and are surrounded by three states who wish for them to be wiped off the planet.
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Whilst I think Hamas are much more crude in their desire to flat out destroy Israel and wipe out the Jews, I don't think Israel wants Gaza or the west bank to survive. Their tactics have been slowly but surely encroaching more and more into Palestinian territory and displacing the locals over many years. It doesn't make the headlines and goes unnoticed but they have forced hundred of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and replacing them with Israeli settlers. They have then used the army to enforce these land grabs.

Assuming Israel does eventually take control of all of Gaza and the west bank, I cannot see them creating a society in which Arabs are equals. They are a step down in that I don't think they want to exterminate the Arabs but they certainly want to see Palestine wiped off the map and for the Arab populace to be removed from Israel. Forced displacement is more their way of operating than outright extermination but it's still abhorrent.
 
Ragey Erasmus said:
Whilst I think Hamas are much more crude in their desire to flat out destroy Israel and wipe out the Jews, I don't think Israel wants Gaza or the west bank to survive. Their tactics have been slowly but surely encroaching more and more into Palestinian territory and displacing the locals over many years. It doesn't make the headlines and goes unnoticed but they have forced hundred of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and replacing them with Israeli settlers. They have then used the army to enforce these land grabs.

Assuming Israel does eventually take control of all of Gaza and the west bank, I cannot see them creating a society in which Arabs are equals. They are a step down in that I don't think they want to exterminate the Arabs but they certainly want to see Palestine wiped off the map and for the Arab populace to be removed from Israel. Forced displacement is more their way of operating than outright extermination but it's still abhorrent.
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Which when you look at jewish history. They have been expelled, displaced and on a mass exodus from various places for hundreds of years. You'd have thought they of all groups/religions/people would know how horrible that is and be more empathetic.

What israel do next is going to be crucial but yes i think they want total control of Palestine. How the rest of the middle east / world reacts to that is anyone's guess.
 
Saintjay said:
Which when you look at jewish history. They have been expelled, displaced and on a mass exodus from various places for hundreds of years. You'd have thought they of all groups/religions/people would know how horrible that is and be more empathetic.

What israel do next is going to be crucial but yes i think they want total control of Palestine. How the rest of the middle east / world reacts to that is anyone's guess.
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Unfortunately it never works out that way. Most Israelis have never experienced this and the general attitude to hearing it is not one of sympathy but of vengeance and a desire to not be the weak ones again. Quite often those who suffer injustices tend to then inflict them on others. An interesting example from history is the formation of Liberia. Ex-African American slaves left the USA to return to Africa and form a new nation. They turned up in modern day Liberia, colonised it, forced the locals into essentially servitude and made them 2nd class citizens in their own country as the African American immigrants took over.
 
 

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