A Political Thread pt. 2

[Saintjay]

The UN have already stated that war crimes have been committed by both Israel and Hamas. On that basis, how about the west grows some balls and pushes for an international arrest warrant for Netanyahu and the Hamas leadership? Netanyahu said Hamas are worse than ISIS - what a hypocrite. He's a barbaric war monger who isn't interested in freeing the Israeli hostages. He declined some of them being released in exchange for a ceasefire. Their capture gives him the perfect excuse to annihilate Gaza (and likely West Bank) and drive innocent Palestinians out just to strengthen his grip on power. It's his actions that actually endanger innocent Jews and Israelis both in Israel and overseas.

Fine idea in principal but sadly not in reality. A number of people feel Blair is guilty of war crimes, as is Putin. Neither of those will spend a day in court. Certain elements in Ireland were also guilty of what now would be war crimes, bombing hospitals etc again nobody will ever be charged with war crimes.

No doubt Israel have well over stepped the mark putting it mildly. I've seen little to no answer by anyone what would have been an appropriate responce by Israel. The nearest example being 9/11 and the responce that had by the US. I do wonder how other countries would have reacted if over a thousand of it's citizens were massacred on home soil. Or again what people feel is a reasonable response.

 

[Reiser99]

So far no incidents relating to the pro-Palestinian march according to the BBC.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

So far no incidents relating to the pro-Palestinian march according to the BBC.

Meanwhile the number of "counter protesters" arrested is sitting at 80, which is going to be twisted to support the biased policing narrative rather than it being the far right causing the problems.

 

[General Melchett]

Fine idea in principal but sadly not in reality. A number of people feel Blair is guilty of war crimes, as is Putin. Neither of those will spend a day in court. Certain elements in Ireland were also guilty of what now would be war crimes, bombing hospitals etc again nobody will ever be charged with war crimes.

No doubt Israel have well over stepped the mark putting it mildly. I've seen little to no answer by anyone what would have been an appropriate responce by Israel. The nearest example being 9/11 and the responce that had by the US. I do wonder how other countries would have reacted if over a thousand of it's citizens were massacred on home soil. Or again what people feel is a reasonable response.

Overstepping the mark is an understatement. What Hamas did was despicable but two wrongs don't make a right. I don't think anyone is saying Israel don't have the right to respond. It's more how they're going about it. Macron sums it up pretty well here. Israel has a duty to comply with international law re. war. There's no excuse for not agreeing to humanitarian pauses to allow civilians including the elderly, women and children to receive water, food and medical care. If this means the operation to remove Hamas takes a bit longer then so be it. The lack of regard for civilians on both sides has been appalling.

BBC News - Macron calls on Israel to stop killing Gaza's women and babies

Macron calls on Israel to stop killing Gaza's women and babies

In an exclusive BBC interview, the French president said a ceasefire would be in Israel's interest.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[McTallshort]

So the people who went to "defend" the Cenotaph are the ones who have gone and caused all the trouble. Scum

 

[Which Tyler]

So the people who went to "defend" the Cenotaph are the ones who have gone and caused all the trouble. Scum

Arrests scoreboard seems to be:
Defenders of the peace 92 - 2 hate marching, violence fuelling, anti-semites

 

[General Melchett]

So the people who went to "defend" the Cenotaph are the ones who have gone and caused all the trouble. Scum

They're no different to brainless football hooligans looking for beef. Instead of attaching themselves to a club they're the self appointed Cenotaph defenders.

 

[Which Tyler]

They're no different to brainless football hooligans looking for beef. Instead of attaching themselves to a club they're the self appointed Cenotaph defenders.

They're the same people

 

[Reiser99]

It's use mostly comes from the PNC's initial charters, which called for Israel to be completely removed from the map. It's been used by Hamas and PIJ etc since that.

People can tell themselves whatever they want about it to make themselves feel better, but it is a slogan which calls for the extermination of Israel, used by those who want to see the destruction of Jewish people worldwide.

I knew something was bugging me about this.

Symbols and slogan's have different meanings for different people. Some extremists appropriate them and try to abuse their meaning. The swastika is an ancient symbol meaning 'health, luck, success, prosperity'. Does it's appropriation by the Nazi party nullify those meanings and now it is only a symbol of hate? No. It's the same with chanting 'from the river to the sea'. Some will use it as a symbol of wiping Israel from the map and others will not. It is very simplistic to just assume everyone who chants it as having one meaning for it.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

F'ing English football mob. Worst aspect of them. Lack any identity and latch onto this because there's potential for a punch up. That's all they are there for.

 

[General Melchett]

Can we send the football hooligans to Rwanda? Not sure Rwanda deserves that.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I knew something was bugging me about this.

Symbols and slogan's have different meanings for different people. Some extremists appropriate them and try to abuse their meaning. The swastika is an ancient symbol meaning 'health, luck, success, prosperity'. Does it's appropriation by the Nazi party nullify those meanings and now it is only a symbol of hate? No. It's the same with chanting 'from the river to the sea'. Some will use it as a symbol of wiping Israel from the map and others will not. It is very simplistic to just assume everyone who chants it as having one meaning for it.

I guess but really it means a 1 state solution which therefore means the Jews getting wiped out which is probably why most Jews don't like the slogan.

 

[Saintjay]

They're no different to brainless football hooligans looking for beef. Instead of attaching themselves to a club they're the self appointed Cenotaph defenders.

There was a post on twitter saying 'west ham' had the biggest turn out. As a West Ham fan myself it makes me sick certainly not what the club and it's history is about.

 

[Saintjay]

I knew something was bugging me about this.

Symbols and slogan's have different meanings for different people. Some extremists appropriate them and try to abuse their meaning. The swastika is an ancient symbol meaning 'health, luck, success, prosperity'. Does it's appropriation by the Nazi party nullify those meanings and now it is only a symbol of hate? No. It's the same with chanting 'from the river to the sea'. Some will use it as a symbol of wiping Israel from the map and others will not. It is very simplistic to just assume everyone who chants it as having one meaning for it.

Universally now the swastika is recognised as a simple of fascism and hatred. It is offensive to millions. Unfortunately the use of the nazi's changed what it meant. History changes including words and symbols. What was acceptable once doesn't necessarily make it so now.

As I've said before if you wouldn't use words, phrases, symbols at work because you might get sacked. Why think it's acceptable to do it in the street. If you know it's offensive to some people then why do it. I don't think the arguement can be made "well i don't think it's offensive so tough".

 

[Reiser99]

Universally now the swastika is recognised as a simple of fascism and hatred. It is offensive to millions. Unfortunately the use of the nazi's changed what it meant. History changes including words and symbols. What was acceptable once doesn't necessarily make it so now.

As I've said before if you wouldn't use words, phrases, symbols at work because you might get sacked. Why think it's acceptable to do it in the street. If you know it's offensive to some people then why do it. I don't think the arguement can be made "well i don't think it's offensive so tough".

Not really, still used by many Asian religions as it was intended We see issues through a very Western lens and often force that view point onto the rest of the world, regardless of if we intend to or if they want it.

I guess but really it means a 1 state solution which therefore means the Jews getting wiped out which is probably why most Jews don't like the slogan.

For me the issue is that it comes from one point of view. I've said before Israel has done a fantastic job of associating any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

My big issue is that our politicians and media in general have made this a very one sided debate and often speak on behalf of those they disagree with. One of the biggest issues in this whole disaster is that Palestinians and Palestine as a nation has never been treated equally by Western countries. They aren't given a fair voice and when they do, it is often manipulated by pro Israeli politicians and media.

I'm not saying that everyone who chants it wants Israel destroyed and I'm not saying that everyone who chants it doesn't actually mean that. Both can be right, but letting the likes of Suella Braverman decide what a slogan means is dangerous and divisive.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I guess but really it means a 1 state solution which therefore means the Jews getting wiped out which is probably why most Jews don't like the slogan.

I read an article earlier that said the original chant (in Arabic) isn't "Palestine will be free" it's "Palestine will be Arab", which is definitely a bit more genocidey


I said it before but I hate the football nature of my team vs their team that a lot of this has descended into

A friend of mine in London had someone spit at her feet and call her a "Jewess" a week or two ago - she now doesn't wear her star of David necklace and is afraid to walk to work on her own.
She's very left wing, attends all the usual anti war marches that you'd expect from someone that politically minded - she's now got people she thought were her friends telling her she's ridiculous and there's no anti semitism it's just anti Zionism

It's like that clip of the person at last week's march saying the didn't believe Hamas carried out an attack on October 7th, despite Hamas filming it, broadcasting it and bragging about it.

Everyone's taken a black or white view of the whole thing and refuses to acknowledge the whole picture

 

[Welsh Exile]

Not really, still used by many Asian religions as it was intended We see issues through a very Western lens and often force that view point onto the rest of the world, regardless of if we intend to or if they want it.

For me the issue is that it comes from one point of view. I've said before Israel has done a fantastic job of associating any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

My big issue is that our politicians and media in general have made this a very one sided debate and often speak on behalf of those they disagree with. One of the biggest issues in this whole disaster is that Palestinians and Palestine as a nation has never been treated equally by Western countries. They aren't given a fair voice and when they do, it is often manipulated by pro Israeli politicians and media.

I'm not saying that everyone who chants it wants Israel destroyed and I'm not saying that everyone who chants it doesn't actually mean that. Both can be right, but letting the likes of Suella Braverman decide what a slogan means is dangerous and divisive.

I'm not saying they want Israel destroyed (although that is ultimately what will happen) I'm saying the Jews will be wiped out as in Hamas, or even a good chunk of ordinary Palestinians, will want to genocide all the Jews in the area in a 1 state solution scenario.

You're right of course that not everyone that chants it wants the Jews to be genocided but I imagine most Jews will just look at the reality of what the slogan is literally saying and understandably are probably a bit touchy about it, whether that perception is justified or not that is how they'll see it and you'd forgive them a tad of paranoia to be fair.

 

[Reiser99]

I'm not saying they want Israel destroyed (although that is ultimately what will happen) I'm saying the Jews will be wiped out as in Hamas, or even a good chunk of ordinary Palestinians, will want to genocide all the Jews in the area in a 1 state solution scenario.

You're right of course that not everyone that chants it wants the Jews to be genocided but I imagine most Jews will just look at the reality of what the slogan is literally saying and understandably are probably a bit touchy about it, whether that perception is justified or not that is how they'll see it and you'd forgive them a tad of paranoia to be fair.

True and there are certainly people who use the whole situation to be racist towards Jewish people. As Olyy said and like many aspects of politics these days it's now become so tribal it's us vs them. Honestly, the end of the apartheid was only 30 years ago, but I wouldn't see it happening in today's world with the way political discourse has become.

 

[Saintjay]

Not really, still used by many Asian religions as it was intended We see issues through a very Western lens and often force that view point onto the rest of the world, regardless of if we intend to or if they want it.

For me the issue is that it comes from one point of view. I've said before Israel has done a fantastic job of associating any criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

My big issue is that our politicians and media in general have made this a very one sided debate and often speak on behalf of those they disagree with. One of the biggest issues in this whole disaster is that Palestinians and Palestine as a nation has never been treated equally by Western countries. They aren't given a fair voice and when they do, it is often manipulated by pro Israeli politicians and media.

I'm not saying that everyone who chants it wants Israel destroyed and I'm not saying that everyone who chants it doesn't actually mean that. Both can be right, but letting the likes of Suella Braverman decide what a slogan means is dangerous and divisive.

I fully agree a number of issues now and in the past have been caused by the west. The Usa in Iran etc. Equally it's difficult when Hamas are in control of Palestine. I wish i knew the answer. A muslim friend was telling me how currently various groups including Jews would never be accepted in a Palestinian state. Even as a moderate he felt there would never be a situation where both sides accept each other.

As much as i detest her I don't think Bravermen has decided the slogan is offensive, various members of the jewish communy have and made it clear why. It's why the chant is banned in Germany as is displaying the swastika. I'd never say the current German government are divisive and dangerous.

I'll say this forum is the one place i think most are trying to see both sides and the debate has been sensible and civil.

 

[Which Tyler]