A great big Munster thread

[Groundhog]

Johnston has only just signed a contract with us. Wonder if he’d had done that of he knew Carberry was on his way down. Honestly someone needs to go. We have Keatley, Bleyendaal, JJ and Johnston already.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads. Bill has been out injured for majority of season. Add in Keatley will be possibly leaving. Tyler still 50/50 on retirement and JJ will be there but may go to 12 at times. Joey will miss international days so plenty of opportunities. But for now Bill's problem is staying fit. It has never been a case of him not getting selected but fitness.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No duration has officially been reported, praying for one year and back to heaven until it's reported. Joey deserves Dublin, Dublin needs Joey.

 

[munstermuffin]

No duration has officially been reported, praying for one year and back to heaven until it's reported. Joey deserves Dublin, Dublin needs Joey.

It's 2 years with option for 3rd. That is the official length.

But to add I know I was sniping with Snoop on other side about money and Leinster etc but on serious note. Fair play to brains trust. Joey was not a starting 10 at Leinster. He is a very good player who needs consistent games at 10 only. We had a vacancy and well this could work out perfectly. And as I said Joey has big opportunity.

Yes we aren't producing enough in academy and Leinster are. Their schools comp is 1 of best around. And fact is guys who aren't breaking in to be starters will get frustrated and naturally look elsewhere. That is no fault of Leinster either. Fair play they are producing quantity and quality and well things like this will happen more often I feel

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It's 2 years with option for 3rd. That is the official length.

But to add I know I was sniping with Snoop on other side about money and Leinster etc but on serious note. Fair play to brains trust. Joey was not a starting 10 at Leinster. He is a very good player who needs consistent games at 10 only. We had a vacancy and well this could work out perfectly. And as I said Joey has big opportunity.

Yes we aren't producing enough in academy and Leinster are. Their schools comp is 1 of best around. And fact is guys who aren't breaking in to be starters will get frustrated and naturally look elsewhere. That is no fault of Leinster either. Fair play they are producing quantity and quality and well things like this will happen more often I feel

I won't believe anything until I hear it from an IRFU source. Joey was so reluctant to leave I reckon he'll be back soon.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I can see why Joey Carbery wanted to move. He'll get regular game time at 10 outside Conor Murray.

I can see why Munster are happy. They improve in the area they needed most help and get a genuine star too.

I can see why Joe Schmidt is happy. He sees his second choice 10 start more often in key games.

I can see why Leinster should be ****** off. They develop a quality player and have him poached. Like Andrew Conway before him. Like Felix Jones before him.

I hope Munster's skills coaching improves because their passing is abysmal. It'd be a shame to see an attacking talent like Carbery reduced to kicking to the corners because those outside him couldn't catch a cold.

I also hope Munster do a better job developing his game than they did Felix Jones and Andrew Conway. Conway is only now living up to his potential after four so so seasons in red. Jones arguably never properly fulfilled his.

 

[Leinster Fan]

It's at times like this where you miss Cheika as Leinster coach. He'd have been up in arms about this and wouldn't have stopped complaining for months rightly or wrongly. Leo and Stu are too polite. (I'm not complaining though, probably the right decision with my green hat on.)

 

[munstermuffin]

I can see why Joey Carbery wanted to move. He'll get regular game time at 10 outside Conor Murray.

I can see why Munster are happy. They improve in the area they needed most help and get a genuine star too.

I can see why Joe Schmidt is happy. He sees his second choice 10 start more often in key games.

I can see why Leinster should be ****** off. They develop a quality player and have him poached. Like Andrew Conway before him. Like Felix Jones before him.

I hope Munster's skills coaching improves because their passing is abysmal. It'd be a shame to see an attacking talent like Carbery reduced to kicking to the corners because those outside him couldn't catch a cold.

I also hope Munster do a better job developing his game than they did Felix Jones and Andrew Conway. Conway is only now living up to his potential after four so so seasons in red. Jones arguably never properly fulfilled his.

Maybe but if it does occur that Joey doesn't reach potential it won't be Leinsters problem either.
As I said nobody forced Joey to go. He wants to play 10 and for various reasons didn't even when Sexton was out. And well as you say this move could aid him big time.

@Alpha that fine if and when a release from IRFU comes on length it will show. 2 years with option of a 3rd.

Now obviously I'm not in the negotiations team but interesting that Schmidt said he onlybenquired about Joey going North and thought he'd stay at Leinster.
Also that Joey said he expressed an interest in coming here to play as a 10. So I'd also guess Joey is very happy to come here and played a part in instigating it but also stated he won't play 12 or 15. He's a 10. And take it or leave it.
I'd also state it should happen a bit more if IRFU do get a say. In the peak of Munster should a lock like Mick O Driscoll have moved to Leinster over Perpignan etc.

Also from what I hear the Tomane deal is sanctioned as part of all this. And Joey got a nice pay rise too. We can outbid Leinster but well Leinster offered nothing per se

 

[Hanley!]

I'm hoping this works out well for all concerned. Carbery isn't the finished article, and frankly I don't think Keatley gets enough credit for the past two seasons where he has played well. I don't know that Munster are getting a better 10 on day one, but as a long term prospect Carbery is better than any of our current 10s. And more time starting at 10, particularly alongside Murray, should hopefully see him improve further throughout the next season. It definitely helps his chances of becoming Ireland's starting 10 once Sexton has retired.

I hope he gels well with the rest of the Munster team. He should add some attacking flair, which is something we need right now. I just hope it won't compromise any of the stronger parts of Munster's game. The Munster backline could be quite exciting next year with Farrell and Taute due to come back also.

It does feel like one of our 10s should be moving to Ulster at this point, though it's hard to tell who it will be. I'm not sure who would be the best fit up there, but I would be hoping Hanrahan is the guy to leave. He just wasn't delivering consistently for us this past season when he was given opportunities.

 

[Groundhog]

I can see why Leinster should be ****** off. They develop a quality player and have him poached. Like Andrew Conway before him. Like Felix Jones before him.

I hope Munster's skills coaching improves because their passing is abysmal. It'd be a shame to see an attacking talent like Carbery reduced to kicking to the corners because those outside him couldn't catch a cold.

I also hope Munster do a better job developing his game than they did Felix Jones and Andrew Conway. Conway is only now living up to his potential after four so so seasons in red. Jones arguably never properly fulfilled his.

We poached Conway and Jones? Pull the other one honestly. Both players left of their own free will because Leinster either didn’t want them or weren’t offering a shot at first team rugby. Did you poach Henshaw, a player who was obviously a bailed on starter for Connacht or is it just poaching when it’s not convenient for Leinster?
Conway has fulfilled his potential for a few years of your been paying attention. Jones didn’t fulfill his potential? Hm I Wonder of that had anything to do with being crippled by injuries consistently for his entire career.

 

[munstermuffin]

We poached Conway and Jones? Pull the other one honestly. Both players left of their own free will because Leinster either didn’t want them or weren’t offering a shot at first team rugby. Did you poach Henshaw, a player who was obviously a bailed on starter for Connacht or is it just poaching when it’s not convenient for Leinster?
Conway has fulfilled his potential for a few years of your been paying attention. Jones didn’t fulfill his potential? Hm I Wonder of that had anything to do with being crippled by injuries consistently for his entire career.

On this. He was perfectly on course to do that if not for injury. Many believe he was on the way to RWC11 as starting #15 due to form. He was electric the day we beat Leinster in Pro12 Final in Thomond Park and as is pointed out injury was the real reason here.
On Conway - He left because the traffic in front was too much and he wanted a move.
On Joey C. Not sure on poaching bit. As he has said himself. He wants to be a 10 and wasn't getting the games at Leinster there. Maybe he didn't believe in his ability to get enough time there, maybe he didn't see his role there for the next 2/3 years as being what he wanted. The fact is, as was clearly put from Joey, Schmidt, Leinster to a lesser extent and Munster. Leinster couldn't guarantee Joey the consistent games/minutes at 10 that he felt were required to become the top 10. So he took a chance elsewhere. If you strip it down Joey simply done what was best for Joey. If Leinster didn't want to loose him then he would have been 10 more often and ok he was injured for bit but equally it has become clear over the past season that in the views of Leo/Stu - Joey is the better #22 due to versatility but the 2nd choice 10 to start games for Leinster is Ross Byrne.

 

[Amiga500]

I think we need to accept that in the professional era, we shouldn't be so adverse to fellas moving around the provinces a bit.

It's not quite the same as the GAA, where your club is who you* are and your livelihood is not dependent on it.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a fella leave us and head down the road than have to head across to England or further afield. Its only a wee drive to mammy and daddy (and visa versa) - and for mates too. There is not that many professional sportsmen in Ireland - I'd rather them be happy at home than forced abroad - I think as my folks get older I'm appreciating what that proximity (and being able to pick up a set of car keys and just go) can mean more and more.


*One of the greatest footballers our county, and many would say the country has ever seen, has never quite been forgiven for transferring from a neighbouring parish to another neighbouring parish. I'll not name names.

 

[munstermuffin]

I think we need to accept that in the professional era, we shouldn't be so adverse to fellas moving around the provinces a bit.

It's not quite the same as the GAA, where your club is who you* are and your livelihood is not dependent on it.

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a fella leave us and head down the road than have to head across to England or further afield. Its only a wee drive to mammy and daddy (and visa versa) - and for mates too. There is not that many professional sportsmen in Ireland - I'd rather them be happy at home than forced abroad - I think as my folks get older I'm appreciating what that proximity (and being able to pick up a set of car keys and just go) can mean more and more.


*One of the greatest footballers our county, and many would say the country has ever seen, has never quite been forgiven for transferring from a neighbouring parish to another neighbouring parish. I'll not name names.

The key point there Amiga is as you say. It is professional and livelihoods are dependent on it. Like if I was good enough to be a Pro and Munster didn't want me but Leinster did. I would jump at chance and buy in to it.
Even now I'm lucky to work as physiotherapist for Munster Rugby but equally if I got offered a higher role at higher pay with another team I would consider it. Although it would feel weird working against a team you've supported all your life.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

We poached Conway and Jones? Pull the other one honestly. Both players left of their own free will because Leinster either didn’t want them or weren’t offering a shot at first team rugby.

Andrew Conway was absolutely poached. He played 12 times for his province before the age of 20. He was Ireland's record try scorer at u20 level. He started a European final and Pro 14 final for Leinster at 21 years old and got 1355 minutes that season. Clearly he had a big future at Leinster. Signs for Munster, sees his game time reduced to 682 minutes with no European game time in his first season.

Felix Jones was definitely wanted by Leinster. Read any reports on Michael Cheika's reaction to his departure.

Did you poach Henshaw, a player who was obviously a bailed on starter for Connacht or is it just poaching when it’s not convenient for Leinster?

Yes. I've never denied it. Just like I stand by my assertion that Andrew Conway, Felix Jones and Joey Carbery were poached.

Conway has fulfilled his potential for a few years of your been paying attention.

It's only in the last two seasons that he's started showing real signs of becoming the player he was always capable of being.

Jones didn’t fulfill his potential? Hm I Wonder of that had anything to do with being crippled by injuries consistently for his entire career.

Perhaps I was being a little harsh on Felix Jones. Injuries didn't help him. He had three relatively injury free seasons but while flashing his potential in those years, never hit the heights he could have.

...................................................
Look, this is a great signing for Munster and Ireland. It stinks for Leinster.

The IRFU need a strong Munster. They need to show some tough love though. They denied Leinster signing backrow cover a couple of seasons ago and a bunch of players emerged. Denied Leinster signing a new backup flyhalf and both Joey Carbery and Ross Byrne emerged. Denied Ulster re-signing Ruan Pienaar and John Cooney became a viable international. Denied Munster a stop gap at tighthead and both John Ryan and Stephen Archer (which has pleasantly surprised me) came on leaps and bounds. Fine, sign Joey Carbery for the betterment of the national team but make sure they get their sh*t together in the academy and bring players through their system. They're failing to do that at the moment.

If the three quarters still can't pass the ball, the Carbery signing will be a massive waste of time and will block the development of Bill Johnston.

 

[Amiga500]

If the three quarters still can't pass the ball, the Carbery signing will be a massive waste of time and will block the development of Bill Johnston.

Big enough to play as a 12?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Big enough to play as a 12?

Not sure but don't think there's an opening there for him with Rorry Scannell, Jaco Taute, Sam Arnold and Chris Farrell available to play centre.

 

[munstermuffin]

@snoopy snoopy dog dog the comments on the academy are wrong though. The work is being put in but if you look at Leinster. The schools system is where the real ground work is done. A lot of the schools are fee paying schools. We don't have that here. And with them fee paying schools it is funds too generate good investment in to roots of game. And we don't have as many schools playing at a level needed either. Yes we could be doing better but it's not comparing like with like. Even the numbers playing schools in Leinster to Munster was nearly 5.3 to 1 in 2016.
And all this talk on Bill Johnston being blocked is way off the mark. Bill has not been blocked at all.
The facts are this. Bill has had a lot of injuries. For Garryowen and A team. So hasn't been fit enough. Now if he is fit opportunities will arrive.
Joey - Will be IRFU managed so gametime limited.
JJ/Keatley - 1 will be leaving and the other IF they stay will probably play as a 15 or 12 with 10 being a back up option.
Tyler - Remember he was originally signed to play 12. Now that option may be explored again but that is if Tyler plays again which is on the ropes.

On Taute. He will be used as a 15 this year a bit too I'm expecting as Conway will be IRFU managed. Farrell will be out until maybe November/December.

But back on Joey thing too. The big point being missed is Joey seen himself as a 3rd choice starting 10 for Leinster. Leinster didn't necessarily disagree with that. And he went to a team where he will play almost exclusively as a 10. Leinster weren't wrong but can't blame the player for doing what he felt was best for him

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@muff
I agree with much of this.

As said previously, I can see why Carbery would be tempted by the move.

I don't think anyone expects Munster's academy to product as much as Leinster's. What is expected is for them to produce more than they are at present. Not knocking you but previously I said Jack O'Sullivan should see game time next season and you said he's not ready (paraphrasing). Now, his injury will get in the way of him playing much before Christmas (cruciate ligament I think?) but I don't see Caelan Doris being similarly withheld. Munster are more cautious, too cautious perhaps, in bringing players through. Darren Sweetnam is still considered an up and comer at 25 years old!

Get more game time for Liam O'Connor, Fineen Wycherley, Calvin Nash and Bill Johnston to name a few and Munster will benefit from it in the long run. There's nothing to fear throwing in talented young players.

 

[munstermuffin]

@snoopy snoopy dog dog but that is my point going back to Schools level. The Leinster and especially Dublin based schools train as much as pros. They are doing the gym sessions professionally etc. I'm working this from my physiotherapy background. When they come to professional level that experience stands to them. It's the same reason we pick up alot of injuries too. Being fair Nash and Wycherley have got chances. On O'Sullivan I said he is not ready yet for that reason on physicality. It ok to look good at 20 level but it different at adult I'd argue even step up from A to Pro 14 level in physicality terms is huge.

And that leads me back to Bill J. Throw him in without building him and he won't be there by 25. 1 lost name in all this too is Johnny Holland by the way. He was well on the right path until injury saw him off too.

I wouldn't consider Sweets an up and comer but he went in to Ireland camp and his confidence just crashed. And that isn't Ireland's fault more his defence was iffy and he went up a level and it was torn apart.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@snoopy snoopy dog dog but that is my point going back to Schools level. The Leinster and especially Dublin based schools train as much as pros.

What's the stop Munster investing in that instead of, say, Arno Botha?