5 vital players for each country ahead of the world cup?

[goodNumber10]

01: Owen Farrell - needs to re-invent himself, but if we want to win the world cup he needs to be on form.
02: Joe Launchberry - we need him to carry
03: Morgan - we need his ball carrying
04: Woods - he's going to be there so get over it, he needs to find his form again (showed glimpses against Australia)
05: Danny Care - when he fires we fire.

 

[Mikel92]

In no order...

-Retallick
-McCaw
-Read
-Aaron Smith
-Savea

Coles would also be in that category but I can only pick 5. I don't think Read, Savea or Rettalick need explaining. McCaw is our best flanker, period. Yeah Sam Cane is a good player, but imo he isn't at the level McCaw is at. If we invested time into Matt Todd, well, that might be different. Just not sure Cane has the explosiveness, leadership skills, agility and breakdown work rate that McCaw has. (by work rate I don't just mean turn over numbers). Plus Cane is susceptible to injuries it seems, so if McCaw went down I'd be nervous. And Aaron Smith ... well, after the performance against Scotland I'm very concerned about Perenara. He really needs to get that ball out faster next year. He's good with momentum and a brilliant forward back, but if things are sluggish then I feel he really struggles.

After watching England the other day I would say that Lawes is massive for them. Awesome player. Clearly they'd benefit from having Tuilagi back. I also think you need Robshaw and Morgan in the mix.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Michael Lawes is a very good player but I don't think he's as important to us as, say, Launchbury.
Launchbury's tight carrying is largely forgettable but he's so ever present around the field he tends to get his hands on the ball in space at speed, and has good ball skills for an offloading game.
His rucking and breakdown work is pretty exceptional, and just like Lawes can track guys across the pitch to make try saving tackles.

In short whilst Lawes is great I wouldn't go as far as to say that when he plays well England play well. Whereas England tend to play well whenever Launchbury is playing which tells you something!

Robshaw showed at the weekend the sort of captains performance which the likes of Pocock and Mccaw regularly put in over the years, and which can really lift a team. With Vunipola and Wood playing pretty poorly, god knows where we would have been this series without Robshaws workrate.

Morgan definitely for me. The coaches learned a difficult lesson at the Millennium stadium 2 years ago that a back row without a carrier is asking for trouble. Morgan is becoming increasingly essential to our game especially when we're passing too him close to contact and thereby not allowing defenders to line him up.

Marler -v often underrated because he's made such strides in the last 3 years. Great defence, I remember one first half play where Foley or Phipsp tried to switch inside for an Oz back coming in at pace and marler saw it coming, closed the gap and lined him up. In short unlike many front rowers his contribution is as much in loose play as at the set-piece.

Mike Brown - Was at the heart of most things we achieved in the six nations. Looking at his less strong performances this series where he's failed to take a couple of key passes, or made a bad offload, or not taken a ball, I have zero hesitation in saying that he's key; if he had been on form enough to cut out those errors, it may sound silly to say, but some of the results of this autumn might have been different...

 

[TommiG88]

Have you not noticed the massive increase in effectiveness of our set-piece this series, since Attwood has come in?

This is the first series where our maul and scrum has been consistently dominant... in fact, has had any real dominance for a long time.

Our set piece has always been solid, but I feel outside of the set piece launchbury and lawes are far superior.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Our set-piece has gone from solid to dominant - largely because we've finally brought in a TH lock.

 

[goodNumber10]

Our set-piece has gone from solid to dominant - largely because we've finally brought in a TH lock.

yes, but you also have to offbalance that with the rest of the game mate. Not saying Attwood isn't great there but is the offset enough to keep Launchberry out?

 

[Mikel92]

Michael Lawes is a very good player but I don't think he's as important to us as, say, Launchbury.
Launchbury's tight carrying is largely forgettable but he's so ever present around the field he tends to get his hands on the ball in space at speed, and has good ball skills for an offloading game.
His rucking and breakdown work is pretty exceptional, and just like Lawes can track guys across the pitch to make try saving tackles.

In short whilst Lawes is great I wouldn't go as far as to say that when he plays well England play well. Whereas England tend to play well whenever Launchbury is playing which tells you something!

Robshaw showed at the weekend the sort of captains performance which the likes of Pocock and Mccaw regularly put in over the years, and which can really lift a team. With Vunipola and Wood playing pretty poorly, god knows where we would have been this series without Robshaws workrate.

Morgan definitely for me. The coaches learned a difficult lesson at the Millennium stadium 2 years ago that a back row without a carrier is asking for trouble. Morgan is becoming increasingly essential to our game especially when we're passing too him close to contact and thereby not allowing defenders to line him up.

Marler -v often underrated because he's made such strides in the last 3 years. Great defence, I remember one first half play where Foley or Phipsp tried to switch inside for an Oz back coming in at pace and marler saw it coming, closed the gap and lined him up. In short unlike many front rowers his contribution is as much in loose play as at the set-piece.

Mike Brown - Was at the heart of most things we achieved in the six nations. Looking at his less strong performances this series where he's failed to take a couple of key passes, or made a bad offload, or not taken a ball, I have zero hesitation in saying that he's key; if he had been on form enough to cut out those errors, it may sound silly to say, but some of the results of this autumn might have been different...

Yeah, not Brown's best series towards the end but I like the guy. Best fullback in the world when he's on song, imo. If he can find and maintain a bit of form next year, Tuilagi comes back, Ford keeps performing at 10 and May gets involved even more then the English backline would be dangerous. Still other factors to be considered, like ruck speed, quality of the ball they're getting, etc, but those other things certainly help.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

yes, but you also have to offbalance that with the rest of the game mate. Not saying Attwood isn't great there but is the offset enough to keep Launchberry out?

I don't think so, but I don't think Lawes is good enough to keep Launchbury out.
I'd have Launchbury/Attwood with Lawes on the bench.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Launchbury/Attwood is my preferred partnership.

 

[tituslechmakus]

1. Mas, probably one of world's best scrummager
2. Fofana, one of the best centre in NH last season
3. Dusautoir, well you all know !
4. Picamoles, our best 3rd row in last 6N
5. Bastareau, even if he's fat, he's our fastest forward !

 

[Mikel92]

Wow really? I thought Lawes would have more love than that. Not denying Attwood is good though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Launchbury is better.

Lawes is a little bit better in the lineout than Launchbury and obviously does his massive missile tackles, but outside of that Launchbury is better in every facet IMO.
You can't play both of them without sacrificing a lot of set-piece strength.

 

[Mikel92]

Launchbury is better.

Lawes is a little bit better in the lineout than Launchbury and obviously does his massive missile tackles, but outside of that Launchbury is better in every facet IMO.
You can't play both of them without sacrificing a lot of set-piece strength.

Oh yeah, I know you guys prefer Launchbury. But I figured Lawes might get the start over Attwood?

 

[Big Ewis]

1. Mas, probably one of world's best scrummager
2. Fofana, one of the best centre in NH last season
3. Dusautoir, well you all know !
4. Picamoles, our best 3rd row in last 6N
5. Bastareau, even if he's fat, he's our fastest forward !

I don't know how to tackle that, sarcastically, with sympathy...I'm going to pick sarcastically: have you been leaving for a bathroom quickie or to the kitchen or feeding the cat at every single French scrum for the past year, or ?...by a crazy coincidence, cleaning your glasses exactly when the ref goes "CROUCH !" ??

 

[goodNumber10]

Launchbury is better.

Lawes is a little bit better in the lineout than Launchbury and obviously does his massive missile tackles, but outside of that Launchbury is better in every facet IMO.
You can't play both of them without sacrificing a lot of set-piece strength.

Don't forget his Maul defence, he destabilises and swims up the middle really really well and he's probably the best ball handling lock out of all three of them.

 

[j'nuh]

+1 on Attwood/Launchbury

Although assuming a fetcher is out of the question, my favourite option is still

4. Attwood
5. Lawes
6. Launchbury

BIG caveat though, Attwood gave away 5 penalties this Autumn. He needs to work on bringing that figure down in future. Otherwise the work done at the scrum is cancelled out by penalties conceded on the field.

01: Owen Farrell - needs to re-invent himself, but if we want to win the world cup he needs to be on form.
02: Joe Launchberry - we need him to carry
03: Morgan - we need his ball carrying
04: Woods - he's going to be there so get over it, he needs to find his form again (showed glimpses against Australia)
05: Danny Care - when he fires we fire.

If Farrell needs to re-invent himself, how is he vital in any way? Instead of waiting Farrell to have an epiphany, surely the more obvious solution would be to... I don't know... pick Ford? Especially considering how well he just showed in the last two games? I think you would have to search deep into Farrell's England career to find a performance as assured as Ford's...

I'm a massive fan of Morgan, but I don't think he's vital as long as one of him OR Vunipola are in form. WC time, if Morgan is terrible and Vunipola is playing out of his skin, I don't think England would lose out too much.

Wood is probably the least specialised player in the entire squad. In form, he's a decent jack-of-all-trades. But Robshaw is a significantly better jack-of-all-trades, getting through tons more work, making many more tackles, much better at the breakdown and conceding much fewer penalties. How Wood made the list and not Robshaw confuses me. More to the point, Wood is easily replaceable. There are tons of flankers about for England that do what Wood does, and does it to the same degree or even higher. There are also tons of players with specialist skills that England could pick that would give the backrow a much better balance than Wood. I'll list players that I think would be an upgrade on Wood, or at least of the same ability:

Launchbury, Croft, Haskell, Clark, Ewers, Garvey, Fearns, Savage, Kvesic, Wallace, Seymour, Fraser, Slater, Vunipola, Lund

 

[goodNumber10]

If Farrell needs to re-invent himself, how is he vital in any way? Instead of waiting Farrell to have an epiphany, surely the more obvious solution would be to... I don't know... pick Ford? Especially considering how well he just showed in the last two games? I think you would have to search deep into Farrell's England career to find a performance as assured as Ford's...

I'm not saying drop Ford am I? I'm just saying i don't think we'll win the world cup with him at 10, I think that because I believe we need a 10 that can kick goals, tackle like a freight train and run the game. Ford can do two of those, Cipriani can do two of those things, Burns can do two of those things.

Ford is playing better than Farrell so we should stick with him, but if we want to win the world cup an on form Farrell is more important than an on song Ford - imho (it is my 5 players after all).

On Morgan, i think Morgan has a better all round game than Vunipola, and is much better at the base of the scrum than BV, and I think that's more important.

Wood is probably the least specialised player in the entire squad. In form, he's a decent jack-of-all-trades. But Robshaw is a significantly better jack-of-all-trades, getting through tons more work, making many more tackles, much better at the breakdown and conceding much fewer penalties. How Wood made the list and not Robshaw confuses me. More to the point, Wood is easily replaceable. There are tons of flankers about for England that do what Wood does, and does it to the same degree or even higher. There are also tons of players with specialist skills that England could pick that would give the backrow a much better balance than Wood. I'll list players that I think would be an upgrade on Wood, or at least of the same ability:

Launchbury, Croft, Haskell, Clark, Ewers, Garvey, Fearns, Savage, Kvesic, Wallace, Seymour, Fraser, Slater, Vunipola

Yet, so many coaches and pundits disagree.

The point i'm making is he's going to be there like it or not. So we need him to get back on form, he started carrying again on Saturday, and he's excellent at the tail - need him to get good on the ground again and and stop the penalties. Tom Wood from pre-2012 was the best 6 in the world.

How Wood made the list and not Robshaw confuses me.

there are only 5 places on the list

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Don't forget his Maul defence, he destabilises and swims up the middle really really well and he's probably the best ball handling lock out of all three of them.

True. I think Lawes perhaps will struggle to retain his place because between them I think Launchbury and Attwood cover the competencies which Lawes can bring; Attwood is a better 'swimmer' than Lawes and more formative in offensive mauling. A slightly better carrier and a much stronger scrummager. Launchbury is far more effective at counter rucking, at the breakdown he wins crucial turnovers. Also got great hands and like Lawes is everywhere around the field.
Lawes is the best lineout forward but some of the other things he does feel like a bit of a luxury adddition - such as maiming opposition half-backs!

I'm beginning to come round to seeing Launchbury as a 6. It just didn't seem necessary back when we had no standout locks but now it seems we're very well endowed. I guess the challenge would be the mental one of ensuring Joe does the same things at 6 as he does at lock and don't make him feel he needs to change.

 

[goodNumber10]

I will never see Launchbury as a 6.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm not saying drop Ford am I? I'm just saying i don't think we'll win the world cup with him at 10, I think that because I believe we need a 10 that can kick goals, tackle like a freight train and run the game. Ford can do two of those, Cipriani can do two of those things, Burns can do two of those things.

Ford is playing better than Farrell so we should stick with him, but if we want to win the world cup an on form Farrell is more important than an on song Ford - imho (it is my 5 players after all).

England are the only nation in the world that seem to care about a tackler at 10. It's a good skill for any player to have, but there are more important things for a 10 to have first. For example, you have tackling as one of your traits before in-game kicking, positional awareness, link play, distribution and ability to take to the line?

On Morgan, i think Morgan has a better all round game than Vunipola, and is much better at the base of the scrum than BV, and I think that's more important.

Definitely agree with this. But we do have a lot of players in the pack with good all-round games. If you just want a carrier (which is the reason you gave to have Morgan) then Vunipola would be an upgrade in the carry on Morgan. I agree with you though, I prefer Morgan for his all-round game, and that he's no slouch in the carry either. I just don't think we'd be too worse off with an in-form Billy.

Yet, so many coaches and pundits disagree.

List them. Would especially be interested in the many coaches. By my count the list is Lancaster and Martin Johnson. (Both are questionable selectors, especially MJ.) I'm not counting Mallinder, because Wood's a no-brainer for his club, there is very little competition.

The point i'm making is he's going to be there like it or not. So we need him to get back on form, he started carrying again on Saturday, and he's excellent at the tail - need him to get good on the ground again and and stop the penalties. Tom Wood from 2012 was the best 6 in the world.

This is a list of vital players, not players who are questionably selected by the coach. If Wood picks up an injury in the run up to the WC, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, in the same way I would if Wilson picked up an injury. (To be totally honest, I'd be quite happy for injury to force someone else into Wood's position.)

Best 6 in the world in 2012? He only played 3 games, one from the bench, that year? Ahead of Flouw? Strange choice.