[2025 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 22/02/25

[Zed]

I'd rather see Borthwick relieved of his duties sooner rather than later. We're over two years in and that performance on Saturday was no better than those seen in the 2023 6N.

Yup hence me saying he should go even if England finish 2nd. I think they'll have an average game against Wales and perhaps put 30 points on Italy to paper over the cracks, but as you said, their performances and strategy mirror those from 2023.

 

[OllyM97]

Ah I, potentially unfairly, assumed they'd win their next two to be fair. If he doesn't get 4/5, he should be shown the door.

It could be me being a pessimistic so and so but I still wouldn't confidently say that 4/5 is in the bag. I think Italy's attacking shape will cause us problems with the way we defend. A couple of Italy's tries against France came from quick offloads from a player taking the ball to the line and getting the support runner into space - Ireland caused all kinds of trouble in the second half in Dublin by doing exactly that. Yes they conceded 73 points against France, but, this year's result not withstanding, we're not France. Our attacking game isn't in the same stratosphere as theirs.

Wales in Cardiff is never a formality for England and Sherratt got a monumental improvement out of them in less than a week that was almost good enough to beat a very strong Irish side (not withstanding a few injuries). The atmosphere for that last game will be unbelievable and we'll be playing against a desperate, emotionally charged team that always lift when they see the white Jersey. England don't normally cope well in that scenario. I genuinely think Wales will beat us.

 

[BPM]

Look, I agree that there's been no consistent progress since 2023 but there is literally no way he will be sacked if he delivers 4 wins from 5. Particularly given that is the goal that was reportedly set for him. The manner of those wins won't make any difference if he meets his objective.

The RFU backed him after a series of losses are hardly going to turn around and give him the heave ho after a series of wins. I don't even think 3 wins would put him in the last chance saloon.

The playing style against Scotland was pretty grim but generally we haven't played that kick dominated gameplan since the 2023 RWC. We've played some attractive rugby at times and often score a decent amount of tries. The issue in the last while has been a comically porous defence.

I think O'Driscoll hit the nail on the head when he said England don't have a definitive style/identity. He's right and IMO, that's the most damning element. 3yrs in and he doesn't look like he's put any kind of stamp on the side.

 

[BPM]

It could be me being a pessimistic so and so but I still wouldn't confidently say that 4/5 is in the bag. I think Italy's attacking shape will cause us problems with the way we defend. A couple of Italy's tries against France came from quick offloads from a player taking the ball to the line and getting the support runner into space - Ireland caused all kinds of trouble in the second half in Dublin by doing exactly that. Yes they conceded 73 points against France, but, this year's result not withstanding, we're not France. Our attacking game isn't in the same stratosphere as theirs.

Wales in Cardiff is never a formality for England and Sherratt got a monumental improvement out of them in less than a week that was almost good enough to beat a very strong Irish side (not withstanding a few injuries). The atmosphere for that last game will be unbelievable and we'll be playing against a desperate, emotionally charged team that always lift when they see the white Jersey. England don't normally cope well in that scenario. I genuinely think Wales will beat us.

Yeah. I could easily see this happening too.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah. I could easily see this happening too.

Anything but that….

 

[Zed]

The RFU backed him after a series of losses are hardly going to turn around and give him the heave ho after a series of wins. I don't even think 3 wins would put him in the last chance saloon.

To be fair I thought they were outstanding v the All Blacks and again in Autumn in the 3 games they lost. They showed a lot of promise and I can imagine the RFU expecting that promise to be delivered in the 6N. Them going backwards is going to get alarm bells ringing especially if Italy and/or Wales are close. SB has one of the worst records as an England coach, how much longer are the RFU going to wait? He'll be touring Argentina in summer with a second strong side (Lions) and they're hard to beat at home. Does he get a hall pass because he can't field a full strength side? I reckon 3 wins and he's gone, 4 wins with bad performances against Italy and Wales and he may still keep his job, but it will be a close call.

 

[BrokenWing]

I think O'Driscoll hit the nail on the head when he said England don't have a definitive style/identity. He's right and IMO, that's the most damning element. 3yrs in and he doesn't look like he's put any kind of stamp on the side.

The Borth Identity

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be fair I thought they were outstanding v the All Blacks and again in Autumn in the 3 games they lost. They showed a lot of promise and I can imagine the RFU expecting that promise to be delivered in the 6N. Them going backwards is going to get alarm bells ringing especially if Italy and/or Wales are close. SB has one of the worst records as an England coach, how much longer are the RFU going to wait? He'll be touring Argentina in summer with a second strong side (Lions) and they're hard to beat at home. Does he get a hall pass because he can't field a full strength side? I reckon 3 wins and he's gone, 4 wins with bad performances against Italy and Wales and he may still keep his job, but it will be a close call.

We've ridden our luck to 2 streaky wins. We could easily have been 0 from 3 and if we had been the pressure would have been right on. But we're not and it isn't, SB has at least bought himself another year.

Not particularly concerned about what happens in the summer provided he has a good look at some new players in positions where we are struggling or have little depth.

Keep reading that SB sees Freeman as a long term option in the centres. Guess we'll just have to wait and see on that.

16-15 seems to a common scoreline. That's the 3rd under SB's reign and that was also the score v ABs in 2018. Saturday was the only one of those 4 we won.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was a big proponent of the Freeman-to-13 movement, but Lawrence has been so much better since moving to 13 that we should be focusing the entirety of our efforts on 12 now

SB probably see's Slade as his RWC 12 and Lawrence his backup so that's why he's considering more 13s, though

 

[Which Tyler]

I've always felt that Freeman to 13 is a solution looking for a problem.
He's an excellent wing, and a proven international in that position. If he wants to switch to OC, then I'm sure he's got the attributes, but I don't think he needs to. I also don't think England need him to, and I don't think Northampton need him to.

At least with moving Daly to FB, there was a need, at international level, to find someone who wasn't Mike Brown, and would allow us all of Daly, Watson and May on the field at the same time, so Daly was the obvious one to try there (it's self-evident that the other 2 would never be able to learn the positional aspects of FB play)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've always felt that Freeman to 13 is a solution looking for a problem.
He's an excellent wing, and a proven international in that position. If he wants to switch to OC, then I'm sure he's got the attributes, but I don't think he needs to. I also don't think England need him to, and I don't think Northampton need him to.

At least with moving Daly to FB, there was a need, at international level, to find someone who wasn't Mike Brown, and would allow us all of Daly, Watson and May on the field at the same time, so Daly was the obvious one to try there (it's self-evident that the other 2 would never be able to learn the positional aspects of FB play)

Whatever the rights and wrongs, Freeman is a centrally contracted player so if that's how SB sees it then he presumably puts some pressure on Saints to play him there. (I'm not sure if he can 'tell' or 'require').

 

[Which Tyler]

A] so far, he hasn't
B] surely the point of a discussion forum is to discuss the opinions of the posters
C] don't we usually clarify technicalities when they're in doubt, rather than when they're not related to the discussion?

 

[BPM]

Anything but that….

Yeah. Would be a nightmare but unless we pull our socks up over the next few weeks, it's a distinct possibility.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Northampton need him to.

I could actually see Saints doing it a bit more once Furbank is back - when you've got all of Hendy, Furbank, Freeman and Sleightholme available you've gotta start shuffling
Though with Freeman on a central contract his game time will have some limitations on, and Sleightholme will have the international stand down too, so it could all work out

 

[Which Tyler]

I could actually see Saints doing it a bit more once Furbank is back - when you've got all of Hendy, Furbank, Freeman and Sleightholme available you've gotta start shuffling
Though with Freeman on a central contract his game time will have some limitations on, and Sleightholme will have the international stand down too, so it could all work out

Equally, with Odendaal, Dingwall, Hutchinson and Litchfield available, you've gotta start shuffling

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Equally, with Odendaal, Dingwall, Hutchinson and Litchfield available, you've gotta start shuffling

True enough, but Saints have already shown interest in him at 13 - he even started the champions cup semi final there with Litchfield on the bench

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

A] so far, he hasn't
B] surely the point of a discussion forum is to discuss the opinions of the posters
C] don't we usually clarify technicalities when they're in doubt, rather than when they're not related to the discussion?

If that was aimed at me…..

I should probably have said pros and cons of Freeman moving to centre, not rights and wrongs. Personally I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way, but from what we read that seems to be SB's long-term plan. And if that's the case it would be a pretty odd to play him there without having banked some reasonable game time for Saints in that shirt. (FWIW, I suspect M Smith at 15 is probably Plan B in the absence of Furbank).

So, my question, which I think is reasonable, is what degree of influence / power SB now has in getting a centrally contracted player to play in a certain position if the club aren't keen. I had read before that SB will have a say in that but I'm not sure who has the ultimate decision.

 

[Which Tyler]

My apologies - I had read your post as having much more aggressive and dismissive non-verbal communication (as in "everything WT has just written is irrelevant because Borthwick has Freeman as his first choice OC"); and responded in kind.

Personally, I haven't read that Borthwick is particularly interested in Freeman playing OC - just a LOT of fans loving it (and Steward at 12, and Earl at 12, and even Marcus at 9 [but never 15])
I read the "Freeman at 13" stuff from Borthwick to be emergency cover - just like Eddie was with Earl at 12 or Ford at 9 - a bit of leeway in case of a card or injury whilst low on bench options.

I then see fans getting (what I would consider) to be carried away, reading far too much into it, and assuming that means that Freeman should be the starting OC (or Ford the starting SH, or Earl/Steward the starting IC, or...)

As for how much say Borthwick has on club selection - AFAIK we don't actually know. The England head coach has always been able to apply pressure, to take an imagined example - if the HC was telling Ben Foden "I see you as a scrum half, not a full back. I will only select you as a scrum half, not a full back; and I will only do so if you're playing scrum half for your club" - then Ben is going to go back to his club and do his best to get game time at scrum half, rather than full back. Same for if the HC is saying "I want to see you trialled at OC for a few matches, see how well you adapt to it at club level, and it'll give us some flexibility in team selection and improve your chances" - then the player would take that message back.
Whether he can tell the club DoR directly "Ben has to play SH, and if you don't, you'll be in breach of contract!" seems... unlikely. But that contract may give his opinion / request more weight.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

I was a big proponent of the Freeman-to-13 movement, but Lawrence has been so much better since moving to 13 that we should be focusing the entirety of our efforts on 12 now

SB probably see's Slade as his RWC 12 and Lawrence his backup so that's why he's considering more 13s, though

I keep saying this on this thread. Lawrence is only playing 13 for England on attack. In defence he is still playing inside centre. The numbers are irrelevant. Its where they are standing on the pitch that is important. Most of the time Lawrence is lining up inside of Slade.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Freeman only covered 13 at the saints when we had injuries. At the start of the season we only had 1 fit centre which is why we used Freeman there and even got some trialists in to help bolster our lack of centres.

With Hutchinson and Dingwall fit, Freeman doesn't start at centre. That's before we get into Burger O coming back and litchfield who is very underrated but could do with nailing down the 12 shirt long term.

And the big thing for me is Lawrence is playing really well. The issue is Slade, so let's look for a proper 12 before we shift a wing to 13, the 13 into 12. Having neither playing in their actual position is stupid.