[2025 Six Nations] England vs Scotland - 22/02/25

[Zed]

I'd rather see Borthwick relieved of his duties sooner rather than later. We're over two years in and that performance on Saturday was no better than those seen in the 2023 6N.

Yup hence me saying he should go even if England finish 2nd. I think they'll have an average game against Wales and perhaps put 30 points on Italy to paper over the cracks, but as you said, their performances and strategy mirror those from 2023.

 

[OllyM97]

Ah I, potentially unfairly, assumed they'd win their next two to be fair. If he doesn't get 4/5, he should be shown the door.

It could be me being a pessimistic so and so but I still wouldn't confidently say that 4/5 is in the bag. I think Italy's attacking shape will cause us problems with the way we defend. A couple of Italy's tries against France came from quick offloads from a player taking the ball to the line and getting the support runner into space - Ireland caused all kinds of trouble in the second half in Dublin by doing exactly that. Yes they conceded 73 points against France, but, this year's result not withstanding, we're not France. Our attacking game isn't in the same stratosphere as theirs.

Wales in Cardiff is never a formality for England and Sherratt got a monumental improvement out of them in less than a week that was almost good enough to beat a very strong Irish side (not withstanding a few injuries). The atmosphere for that last game will be unbelievable and we'll be playing against a desperate, emotionally charged team that always lift when they see the white Jersey. England don't normally cope well in that scenario. I genuinely think Wales will beat us.

 

[BPM]

Look, I agree that there's been no consistent progress since 2023 but there is literally no way he will be sacked if he delivers 4 wins from 5. Particularly given that is the goal that was reportedly set for him. The manner of those wins won't make any difference if he meets his objective.

The RFU backed him after a series of losses are hardly going to turn around and give him the heave ho after a series of wins. I don't even think 3 wins would put him in the last chance saloon.

The playing style against Scotland was pretty grim but generally we haven't played that kick dominated gameplan since the 2023 RWC. We've played some attractive rugby at times and often score a decent amount of tries. The issue in the last while has been a comically porous defence.

I think O'Driscoll hit the nail on the head when he said England don't have a definitive style/identity. He's right and IMO, that's the most damning element. 3yrs in and he doesn't look like he's put any kind of stamp on the side.

 

[BPM]

It could be me being a pessimistic so and so but I still wouldn't confidently say that 4/5 is in the bag. I think Italy's attacking shape will cause us problems with the way we defend. A couple of Italy's tries against France came from quick offloads from a player taking the ball to the line and getting the support runner into space - Ireland caused all kinds of trouble in the second half in Dublin by doing exactly that. Yes they conceded 73 points against France, but, this year's result not withstanding, we're not France. Our attacking game isn't in the same stratosphere as theirs.

Wales in Cardiff is never a formality for England and Sherratt got a monumental improvement out of them in less than a week that was almost good enough to beat a very strong Irish side (not withstanding a few injuries). The atmosphere for that last game will be unbelievable and we'll be playing against a desperate, emotionally charged team that always lift when they see the white Jersey. England don't normally cope well in that scenario. I genuinely think Wales will beat us.

Yeah. I could easily see this happening too.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah. I could easily see this happening too.

Anything but that….

 

[Zed]

The RFU backed him after a series of losses are hardly going to turn around and give him the heave ho after a series of wins. I don't even think 3 wins would put him in the last chance saloon.

To be fair I thought they were outstanding v the All Blacks and again in Autumn in the 3 games they lost. They showed a lot of promise and I can imagine the RFU expecting that promise to be delivered in the 6N. Them going backwards is going to get alarm bells ringing especially if Italy and/or Wales are close. SB has one of the worst records as an England coach, how much longer are the RFU going to wait? He'll be touring Argentina in summer with a second strong side (Lions) and they're hard to beat at home. Does he get a hall pass because he can't field a full strength side? I reckon 3 wins and he's gone, 4 wins with bad performances against Italy and Wales and he may still keep his job, but it will be a close call.

 

[BrokenWing]

I think O'Driscoll hit the nail on the head when he said England don't have a definitive style/identity. He's right and IMO, that's the most damning element. 3yrs in and he doesn't look like he's put any kind of stamp on the side.

The Borth Identity

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To be fair I thought they were outstanding v the All Blacks and again in Autumn in the 3 games they lost. They showed a lot of promise and I can imagine the RFU expecting that promise to be delivered in the 6N. Them going backwards is going to get alarm bells ringing especially if Italy and/or Wales are close. SB has one of the worst records as an England coach, how much longer are the RFU going to wait? He'll be touring Argentina in summer with a second strong side (Lions) and they're hard to beat at home. Does he get a hall pass because he can't field a full strength side? I reckon 3 wins and he's gone, 4 wins with bad performances against Italy and Wales and he may still keep his job, but it will be a close call.

We've ridden our luck to 2 streaky wins. We could easily have been 0 from 3 and if we had been the pressure would have been right on. But we're not and it isn't, SB has at least bought himself another year.

Not particularly concerned about what happens in the summer provided he has a good look at some new players in positions where we are struggling or have little depth.

Keep reading that SB sees Freeman as a long term option in the centres. Guess we'll just have to wait and see on that.

16-15 seems to a common scoreline. That's the 3rd under SB's reign and that was also the score v ABs in 2018. Saturday was the only one of those 4 we won.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was a big proponent of the Freeman-to-13 movement, but Lawrence has been so much better since moving to 13 that we should be focusing the entirety of our efforts on 12 now

SB probably see's Slade as his RWC 12 and Lawrence his backup so that's why he's considering more 13s, though

 

[Which Tyler]

I've always felt that Freeman to 13 is a solution looking for a problem.
He's an excellent wing, and a proven international in that position. If he wants to switch to OC, then I'm sure he's got the attributes, but I don't think he needs to. I also don't think England need him to, and I don't think Northampton need him to.

At least with moving Daly to FB, there was a need, at international level, to find someone who wasn't Mike Brown, and would allow us all of Daly, Watson and May on the field at the same time, so Daly was the obvious one to try there (it's self-evident that the other 2 would never be able to learn the positional aspects of FB play)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've always felt that Freeman to 13 is a solution looking for a problem.
He's an excellent wing, and a proven international in that position. If he wants to switch to OC, then I'm sure he's got the attributes, but I don't think he needs to. I also don't think England need him to, and I don't think Northampton need him to.

At least with moving Daly to FB, there was a need, at international level, to find someone who wasn't Mike Brown, and would allow us all of Daly, Watson and May on the field at the same time, so Daly was the obvious one to try there (it's self-evident that the other 2 would never be able to learn the positional aspects of FB play)

Whatever the rights and wrongs, Freeman is a centrally contracted player so if that's how SB sees it then he presumably puts some pressure on Saints to play him there. (I'm not sure if he can 'tell' or 'require').

 

[Which Tyler]

A] so far, he hasn't
B] surely the point of a discussion forum is to discuss the opinions of the posters
C] don't we usually clarify technicalities when they're in doubt, rather than when they're not related to the discussion?

 

[BPM]

Anything but that….

Yeah. Would be a nightmare but unless we pull our socks up over the next few weeks, it's a distinct possibility.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Northampton need him to.

I could actually see Saints doing it a bit more once Furbank is back - when you've got all of Hendy, Furbank, Freeman and Sleightholme available you've gotta start shuffling
Though with Freeman on a central contract his game time will have some limitations on, and Sleightholme will have the international stand down too, so it could all work out

 

[Which Tyler]

I could actually see Saints doing it a bit more once Furbank is back - when you've got all of Hendy, Furbank, Freeman and Sleightholme available you've gotta start shuffling
Though with Freeman on a central contract his game time will have some limitations on, and Sleightholme will have the international stand down too, so it could all work out

Equally, with Odendaal, Dingwall, Hutchinson and Litchfield available, you've gotta start shuffling