[2025 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 9/3/25

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm an advocate of player combinations rather than selecting each position in isolation, with good club combos being a bonus.

The benefit comes from familiarity. If you select combos but then force them to play a way that is unfamiliar, it defeats the purpose. Selecting saints backs to have then do nothing more than chase kicks is a complete waste.

Although Freeman is one of the best kick to compete chasers out there. Sleightholme not so much.

 

[Becca]

Although Freeman is one of the best kick to compete chasers out there. Sleightholme not so much.

I think Sleightholme's been poor thus far.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think Sleightholme's been poor thus far.

Combination of that hair and Umbro means he's swimming uphill from the start.

Back in the day I remember his old man taking a bit of a pasting when he was caught whistling along to Flower of Scotland during the anthems before a Calcutta Cup match, which he later explained as simply liking the tune.

 

[LIONSxv]

I think Sleightholme's been poor thus far.

Tbf he has been given no service and strengths aren't chasing box kicks. Play Roebuck if that is the intention.

 

[Becca]

Tbf he has been given no service and strengths aren't chasing box kicks. Play Roebuck if that is the intention.

I haven't rated him defensively.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

When taken off vs Scotland he hadn't actually touched the ball, just not good enough from either him looming for work or the rest of the teams attack that was mighty poor.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Although Freeman is one of the best kick to compete chasers out there. Sleightholme not so much.

Which is an argument for selecting Freeman but not a whole host of Saints backs. I have no problem with the Saints backs as a combo if we intend them to play in a similar style to Saints. We don't though and I don't think individually or as a group they may be best suited to whatever SB wants (TBH I think no players are really suited to it as it is such anti-rugby).

 

[Saintjay]

Which is an argument for selecting Freeman but not a whole host of Saints backs. I have no problem with the Saints backs as a combo if we intend them to play in a similar style to Saints. We don't though and I don't think individually or as a group they may be best suited to whatever SB wants (TBH I think no players are really suited to it as it is such anti-rugby).

I'd suspect Borthwick would rather get into figging than utter the words "Right boys go out there and play like you do for Saints".

 

[OllyM97]

It'll be close for most of the game with England winning by 15-20 in the end. In a way it's not good to play Italy after that shambles against France as you'd expect a big response and if it was in Italy then maybe Italy could do something but can't see it at the Allianz.

If this Italian side really are a different team from previous eras then this is when they need to prove it. They can't go under again here, they in all likelihood won't win but they need to be competitive and in the game come the final quarter. There should be wounded pride from conceding 73 points at home and they've had two weeks to stew over it. If they've got anything about them they will physically man up this week. Some of the tries that they let in against France were embarrassingly soft and weak. If Italy get smoked again here then last year was yet another false dawn - I don't think they will though, this will be harder for England than people think.

 

[spartan32]

If this Italian side really are a different team from previous eras then this is when they need to prove it. They can't go under again here, they in all likelihood won't win but they need to be competitive and in the game come the final quarter. There should be wounded pride from conceding 73 points at home and they've had two weeks to stew over it. If they've got anything about them they will physically man up this week. Some of the tries that they let in against France were embarrassingly soft and weak. If Italy get smoked again here then last year was yet another false dawn - I don't think they will though, this will be harder for England than people think.

Firstly "wounded pride" does not magically make a rugby team better or improve their skill set and ability. It my make them more determined, but I cant imagine they went into the French game with a lack of determination, it simply wasn't enough to make up for their lack of core skills and ability. I cant imagine any of the Italian side (except maybe Capuozzo) would make it into the England starting team. So man for man England are a better team. I would also flag the significant weight advantage we have in the Pack, with England 930kg (ish) - Italy 880kg (ish).

Then there is the home advantage for England, with the weather looking pretty excellent for the weekend the home crowd will be in good spirits. With this the last chance to impress at home after the s**t show that was the Scotland game, I would expect England to be pretty fired up and ready to silence some critics. If the crowd get behind the lads Twickenham will feel pretty hostile for the Italians.

In short England have home advantage, perfect playing conditions, a fully fit team stuffed with talented players, a bigger pack and all round more imposing set piece, and hopefully a strong desire to marker down and show what they can do. It is absolutely right to expect that England win this game, and win it well. If they do not it will be down to poor coaching in the lead up, and on the day, and this sadly is the rub. The enemy within. Fingers crossed Itoje can find a way to unshackle the team from the flat nosed grey man and find a way to inspire some quality rugby. But only time will tell.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Firstly "wounded pride" does not magically make a rugby team better or improve their skill set and ability. It my make them more determined, but I cant imagine they went into the French game with a lack of determination, it simply wasn't enough to make up for their lack of core skills and ability. I cant imagine any of the Italian side (except maybe Capuozzo) would make it into the England starting team. So man for man England are a better team. I would also flag the significant weight advantage we have in the Pack, with England 930kg (ish) - Italy 880kg (ish).

Menoncello strolls into the English team, 2nd best 12 in the competition after Aki. Argument to be made for their props, both Cannone bros and Garbisi in a composite XV too.

Italy's issue isn't really with their best players, there's a core of international class players there which their hadn't been for most of the last decade. They still have loads of passengers and zero depth outside of back row and wings.

A top team firing will absolutely pull their pants down but a team ranked 5-10 who are off their game are well within reach for them as Scotland showed last year. They need to rack up as many wins as possible to keep the game popular and continue to sell out stadiums.

Undeniable growth in Italian rugby in the last 5 or so years.

Edit: replied to this post because of the man for man comment but more directed at the one you were responding to suggesting Italy need to prove something in this game. They're going through a bad patch and don't necessarily need to do amything. Would be great to see a bounce though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Italy's centre partnership are probably the best in the tournament, realistically

England's probably 5th, maybe 4th (Huw Jones does a lot of heavy lifting in the Scotland midfield)

 

[spartan32]

Menoncello strolls into the English team, 2nd best 12 in the competition after Aki. Argument to be made for their props, both Cannone bros and Garbisi in a composite XV too.

Italy's issue isn't really with their best players, there's a core of international class players there which their hadn't been for most of the last decade. They still have loads of passengers and zero depth outside of back row and wings.

A top team firing will absolutely pull their pants down but a team ranked 5-10 who are off their game are well within reach for them as Scotland showed last year. They need to rack up as many wins as possible to keep the game popular and continue to sell out stadiums.

Undeniable growth in Italian rugby in the last 5 or so years.

Edit: replied to this post because of the man for man comment but more directed at the one you were responding to suggesting Italy need to prove something in this game. They're going through a bad patch and don't necessarily need to do anything. Would be great to see a bounce though.

I'll give you Menoncello, but I still think the England Pack are a stronger outfit, especially when it comes to the quality of the bench. Don't get me wrong, Italian rugby is steadily improving and thats great to see and long may it continue. It would be great if would could get to a point where the 6 nations is a complete unknown in terms of who will end up where.

In terms of world rankings I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Yes England have had a run of loses, but these were against tier one nations and were all within one score (apart from Australia I think). Scotland have been playing minnows and I would expect the same is true of Italy. Put it this way. If Italy went to NZ and played them I'm pretty sure it would be a cricket score, where as England threatened to crack Dunedin and gave them a good scare.

Ultimately I stand by the view that England should expected to do well in this game. Yes Italy have come along but getting battered by the French shows how far they still need to go.

It may sound a bit like the classic English arrogance, but actually it's about being far to Italy, and demanding a hell of a lot more from England. Of course Italy could win, they've beaten everyone else an surely our day will come, but on the run of things it would be a big ask for them.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Italy could very well cut us open with their attack, and some of their players: Menoncello, Brex, Negri et al have been huge on defence. It could very well come down to scrums being the difference

 

[spartan32]

Italy could very well cut us open with their attack, and some of their players: Menoncello, Brex, Negri et al have been huge on defence. It could very well come down to scrums being the difference

Menoncello has great stats across the board, but Brex stats are pretty poor. Especially in defence. Granted that this is for the last year, and his stats in the comp thus far may be much better. I also wouldn't call 76 points against France "huge in defence". There's clearly ways through. Not that I'm saying England can play like the French (if only!).

Agree on the scrums, and I would also say the lineout. Pretty confident we have the advantage in both and that should give us a great platform from which to attack. We just need to get the ball into the hands of our backs rather then kicking it away. Little worried about Dingwall as he's a bit of an unknown, and as you say, the Italian pairing are strong together.

 

[OllyM97]

Firstly "wounded pride" does not magically make a rugby team better or improve their skill set and ability. It my make them more determined, but I cant imagine they went into the French game with a lack of determination, it simply wasn't enough to make up for their lack of core skills and ability. I cant imagine any of the Italian side (except maybe Capuozzo) would make it into the England starting team. So man for man England are a better team. I would also flag the significant weight advantage we have in the Pack, with England 930kg (ish) - Italy 880kg (ish).

Then there is the home advantage for England, with the weather looking pretty excellent for the weekend the home crowd will be in good spirits. With this the last chance to impress at home after the s**t show that was the Scotland game, I would expect England to be pretty fired up and ready to silence some critics. If the crowd get behind the lads Twickenham will feel pretty hostile for the Italians.

In short England have home advantage, perfect playing conditions, a fully fit team stuffed with talented players, a bigger pack and all round more imposing set piece, and hopefully a strong desire to marker down and show what they can do. It is absolutely right to expect that England win this game, and win it well. If they do not it will be down to poor coaching in the lead up, and on the day, and this sadly is the rub. The enemy within. Fingers crossed Itoje can find a way to unshackle the team from the flat nosed grey man and find a way to inspire some quality rugby. But only time will tell.

That's utterly spurious, dismissive tripe. Menoncello, Brex, Capuozzo, Ioane would walk into England's team and Garbisi wouldn't be a million miles off either. You need a reality check mate, this team is nowhere near as good as you think it is and a couple of lucky one point wins don't change that. We've got the better pack, but when was the last time we really dominated somebody at the scrum and won a game off it, it's years ago. Our scrum is overrated.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think Brex is pretty overrated, living off Menoncello. Has an eye for the line but holes elsewhere.

Give Italy a proper heavyweight lock, a better centre and they'd be a lot stronger. I think they'd be better off with Trulla in the back three ahead of Allen but Quesada doesn't trust Garbisi to run a game on his own.

 

[Saintjay]

Italy could very well cut us open with their attack, and some of their players: Menoncello, Brex, Negri et al have been huge on defence. It could very well come down to scrums being the difference

Shipping 11 tries in your last game doesn't shout huge in defence to me. Scotland still put 30 on them.

Individually yes maybe good efforts but as a team not great defence.

 

[spartan32]

That's utterly spurious, dismissive tripe. Menoncello, Brex, Capuozzo, Ioane would walk into England's team and Garbisi wouldn't be a million miles off either. You need a reality check mate, this team is nowhere near as good as you think it is and a couple of lucky one point wins don't change that. We've got the better pack, but when was the last time we really dominated somebody at the scrum and won a game off it, it's years ago. Our scrum is overrated.

A little unfair to call the win against France lucky, and I've already said that the win against the Scots was blind luck and a very poor performance. My expectation of this game is not based on these results, but in the belief that this England team can play much better rugby then they currently are. Italy have been soundly beaten by both Scotland and France, and neither of those teams managed to beat England, and even if Scotland had managed to get the last kick to win it still would have been a close game. The same could not be said for the Italy games. Your view on who makes it into England and who doesn't is something we clearly differ on, but as two teams in this tournament England are better on the run of form. So far this tournament England have:

Scored more tries than Italy 8 to 5
More attacking 22 entries 21 to 17
More: Meters Carried, Meters Gained, Line Breaks, Break Down Steals, Line out takes and line outs won, and a higher scrum win ratio.

The main stats that the Italians top is tackles made, which doesn't scream tries.

All this arguably with the team not playing anywhere near their best, something that most pundits agree on. England seem shackled by the coaching structure and this is effecting their ability to play. I also remake my point that in the last year England have run some of the best teams in the world very close, something I would suggest Italy would not have if in the same boat.

In terms of how good I think England are. I think they are good enough to win against a team who they beat in many of the key stats, when all suggestions are that our pack platform is better, and our bench stronger, and we are playing at home in near perfect rugby conditions. Don't think thats particularly far fetched or spurious.

Would be interested to understand what your expectations are though. Do you see this as a 50/50 game? Or maybe you rate Italy above England and are predicting a shock first victory for the Azzuri? I've pinned my colours to the mast in terms of expectation, what's your take?

 

[OllyM97]

A little unfair to call the win against France lucky, and I've already said that the win against the Scots was blind luck and a very poor performance. My expectation of this game is not based on these results, but in the belief that this England team can play much better rugby then they currently are. Italy have been soundly beaten by both Scotland and France, and neither of those teams managed to beat England, and even if Scotland had managed to get the last kick to win it still would have been a close game. The same could not be said for the Italy games. Your view on who makes it into England and who doesn't is something we clearly differ on, but as two teams in this tournament England are better on the run of form. So far this tournament England have:

Scored more tries than Italy 8 to 5
More attacking 22 entries 21 to 17
More: Meters Carried, Meters Gained, Line Breaks, Break Down Steals, Line out takes and line outs won, and a higher scrum win ratio.

The main stats that the Italians top is tackles made, which doesn't scream tries.

All this arguably with the team not playing anywhere near their best, something that most pundits agree on. England seem shackled by the coaching structure and this is effecting their ability to play. I also remake my point that in the last year England have run some of the best teams in the world very close, something I would suggest Italy would not have if in the same boat.

In terms of how good I think England are. I think they are good enough to win against a team who they beat in many of the key stats, when all suggestions are that our pack platform is better, and our bench stronger, and we are playing at home in near perfect rugby conditions. Don't think thats particularly far fetched or spurious.

Would be interested to understand what your expectations are though. Do you see this as a 50/50 game? Or maybe you rate Italy above England and are predicting a shock first victory for the Azzuri? I've pinned my colours to the mast in terms of expectation, what's your take?

My take is that England's deficiencies in attack and seeming lack of ambition to play will keep Italy in the game for a long time - and if Italy can nail 2 or 3 breaks and chances that they will create because of their attacking structure, I think they've got the ability to run England very close. England under Borthwick are set up to grind out wins and bring better teams down to our level, we are not set up to absolutely blitz inferior teams. I feel like the main priority is still to stop other teams playing.