[2024 Six Nations] Scotland vs England - 24/02/24

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Worrying how even Steve Borthwick doesn't know why senior players didn't follow the game plan and changed everything after 20 minutes.

Maybe Ford isn't this general he's supposed to be, maybe care does his own thing? Surely the coach must know these things by now. Really baffling.

Maybe the team hate the gameplan and think it's rubbish?

I thought this basic stuff was being sorted last year?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

25 handling errors and 22 turnovers conceded. Incredible numbers that would embarrass Under 12s.

Itoje banging on about playing 'hot potato' rugby that wasn't in the script. Well Maro, how did you, as a senior player, intervene to put things back on track? What was George saying? What on earth were the 190 caps of Care and Ford doing - they set the tempo. SB takes his share of the flak, but the on field leadership has been non existent for years.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do think that ties into the lack of bite in coaching staff too - who's driving standards? Who's our defensive captain?

I love JG and he was my first choice pick for captain but who are our horrible ******** in the leadership group who can give everyone a bollocking when the wheel's comes off?

You look at Borthwick's success with Tigers and he had Hanro Liebenberg leading the troops

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Just noticed that there were 3 vice captains - a ridiculous concept in itself - Ford, Itoje and Genge.

You know I look at the team and literally the only one I think "yeah, you're made of the right stuff" is Martin. Others are decent and can have good games, but he's the only one I'm looking at and thinking there's a world class player in the making. Earl always looks up for the fight too although I'm not sure a Savea type 8 is really what we need.

 

[Saintjay]

Do think that ties into the lack of bite in coaching staff too - who's driving standards? Who's our defensive captain?

I love JG and he was my first choice pick for captain but who are our horrible ******** in the leadership group who can give everyone a bollocking when the wheel's comes off?

You look at Borthwick's success with Tigers and he had Hanro Liebenberg leading the troops

Some senior hard carrying nasty forwards who can get over the gain line would be a start. Other than Earl I'm struggling to say who there is.

 

[TommiG88]

Just noticed that there were 3 vice captains - a ridiculous concept in itself - Ford, Itoje and Genge.

You know I look at the team and literally the only one I think "yeah, you're made of the right stuff" is Martin. Others are decent and can have good games, but he's the only one I'm looking at and thinking there's a world class player in the making. Earl always looks up for the fight too although I'm not sure a Savea type 8 is really what we need.

I was thinking the same this morning. What an exciting life I lead

 

[retired9]

Haven't trawled the whole thread to look, but I'm gonna ask the question: Are England missing Faz?

Personally I think they absolutely are, this happened a few years back when he was out injured, the whole team looked completely rudderless and lack lustre. Now they knew that he wouldn't be there this championship and had time t o sort out another leader, but that is the hole he leaves needing filled. The players speak highly of the guys (both Eng and Lions) so this is maybe the end result.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haven't trawled the whole thread to look, but I'm gonna ask the question: Are England missing Faz?

Someone did mention during the game that Faz's stock is rising despite being absent

We played some absolute dross with him at 10 and 12, and I don't think we should get the rose tinted glasses out just yet, but do think we're missing the PASHUN that he brought to training and even game day
Tom Curry brings the same energy to Sale, I think England losing both of those out of the EPS has left a bit of a void - someone needs to step up and be a leader, not just a captain

 

[General Melchett]

Good shout re. Faz but it does highlight the importance of developing a leadership group where there's not too much reliance on one or two individuals and there are ready made leaders to fill a void. Maybe there was too much of a gulf between Faz and the rest.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Maybe there was too much of a gulf between Faz and ry rest?

Too many southerners in the side, tbh
All soft as puppy shite

Borthwick and Wigglesworth spent too much time down south, they've been assimilated

 

[retired9]

Someone did mention during the game that Faz's stock is rising despite being absent

We played some absolute dross with him at 10 and 12, and I don't think we should get the rose tinted glasses out just yet, but do think we're missing the PASHUN that he brought to training and even game day
Tom Curry brings the same energy to Sale, I think England losing both of those out of the EPS has left a bit of a void - someone needs to step up and be a leader, not just a captain

100% it can't all be on one player either as mentioned, I think he made a better 10 than 12 anyway FWIW.

 

[Zed]

Haven't trawled the whole thread to look, but I'm gonna ask the question: Are England missing Faz?

Personally I think they absolutely are, this happened a few years back when he was out injured, the whole team looked completely rudderless and lack lustre. Now they knew that he wouldn't be there this championship and had time t o sort out another leader, but that is the hole he leaves needing filled. The players speak highly of the guys (both Eng and Lions) so this is maybe the end result.

I don't think England's issue is players. They've got plenty of top level players. They are playing **** rugby and that's to do with coaching, strategy and a lack of confidence in themselves, the team and the coaching staff. They're lost. They don't what they're doing half the time, they've forgotten how to play rugby, they're probably being over-coached. In this zone you do X. You could see that when England played Ireland* last year, England received a kick from Ireland, in their own half, but the Irish defence was disorganised, two wide passes and they would have run 80m and scored or at least made ground. Instead they just box kicked it back to Ireland who ran through and scored. SB would have told his team between the 22 and half way you kick, end of....

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Some senior hard carrying nasty forwards who can get over the gain line would be a start. Other than Earl I'm struggling to say who there is.

If only we had a player with a bit of bite and drive. Maybe starting with "Mer" and ending with "cer".

I've gone off him recently and his recent strop hasn't helped his chances but he has the sort of fighting mentality we need. Look at how Townsend dealt with Russell being a diva, they sorted it out and now he pivotal in the Scotland team.

Genge and Sinckler used to have that fight but, rather than being tempered and controlled, it seems to have been completely knocked out of them.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Too many southerners in the side, tbh
All soft as puppy shite

Borthwick and Wigglesworth spent too much time down south, they've been assimilated

Pah. If you go to our Northern clubs, all you find is South African forwards and Argentinian backs.

Both of which might be really quite useful…..

I don't think England's issue is players. They've got plenty of top level players. They are playing **** rugby and that's to do with coaching, strategy and a lack of confidence in themselves, the team and the coaching staff. They're lost. They don't what they're doing half the time, they've forgotten how to play rugby, they're probably being over-coached. In this zone you do X. You could see that when England played Ireland* last year, England received a kick from Ireland, in their own half, but the Irish defence was disorganised, two wide passes and they would have run 80m and scored or at least made ground. Instead they just box kicked it back to Ireland who ran through and scored. SB would have told his team between the 22 and half way you kick, end of....

Completely agree with this.

Except perhaps for your first 2 sentences. We have a lot of good players but very few really top notch players. At various points in relatively recent times Watson, May, George, Curry, Sinckler, Itoje, B Vunipola, Farrell, Manu, Underhill and even for a time Genge etc were all spoken of as being one of the best in the world in their position - mostly a bit hyperbolic but they were at least in that conversation. That's just not the case now although it can be hard to distinguish cause and effect (and that's about the 3rd different way I've made a similar point in the last 24 hours!).

 

[Saintjay]

If only we had a player with a bit of bite and drive. Maybe starting with "Mer" and ending with "cer".

I've gone off him recently and his recent strop hasn't helped his chances but he has the sort of fighting mentality we need. Look at how Townsend dealt with Russell being a diva, they sorted it out and now he pivotal in the Scotland team.

Genge and Sinckler used to have that fight but, rather than being tempered and controlled, it seems to have been completely knocked out of them.

The Pat Lam effect.

Sinckler was always more Bobby Boucher, The Water Boy, than Chuck Norris controled violence.

 

[Half Pint]

Worrying how even Steve Borthwick doesn't know why senior players didn't follow the game plan and changed everything after 20 minutes.

Maybe Ford isn't this general he's supposed to be, maybe care does his own thing? Surely the coach must know these things by now. Really baffling.

Maybe the team hate the gameplan and think it's rubbish?

I thought this basic stuff was being sorted last year?

I was wondering if Steve Borthwick has already won his last game?
Unfortunately I think that he'll get a lot of latitude to lose quite a few more, but I've got no reason to think that we'll win another game in the 6N, or any of the autumn internationals, and by then it'll be two years of rudderless drifting and I'll almost be wondering what Eddie Jones is up to..

 

[Wasps92]

I was wondering if Steve Borthwick has already won his last game?
Unfortunately I think that he'll get a lot of latitude to lose quite a few more, but I've got no reason to think that we'll win another game in the 6N, or any of the autumn internationals, and by then it'll be two years of rudderless drifting and I'll almost be wondering what Eddie Jones is up to..

Yeah unfortunately I think he will get another 6 Nations after this one.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah unfortunately I think he will get another 6 Nations after this one.

I can't wait until a Ronan O'Gara coached England loses to a late Ireland Owen Farrell penalty in the last game of 2027 6 nations. And then international rugby takes a 10 month sabbatical because nothing else needs to happen that year.

 

[ncurd]

I think everyone might be a bit too doom and gloom after this game.

We scored two good trys.
Some of the kicking was actually pretty good.
The penalty count was low.
VDM was gifted two trys.

Sure there was a lot to be desired like the passing and catching. But it did feel like there was actual positives out of this one. Unlike many many other England losses.

 

[Jimbo]

I think everyone might be a bit too doom and gloom after this game.

We scored two good trys.
Some of the kicking was actually pretty good.
The penalty count was low.
VDM was gifted two trys.

Sure there was a lot to be desired like the passing and catching. But it did feel like there was actual positives out of this one. Unlike many many other England losses.

Yep, I feel same far from a finished article, take away the own goals and Scotland were kept relatively at bay, OL won't be that bad again, he's proven to be far better than he was this weekend.