[2024 Six Nations] Scotland vs England - 24/02/24

[Ragey Erasmus]

The worst bit for me is I see no end in sight of the decline nor easy fixes. Everything from the tactics to selection to basic handling is way off where it needs to be and way below what these players produce at club level. I think Borthwick is the only coach in the world who is getting players playing much worse internationally than at their clubs.

I'd say half the premiership teams could beat England with reasonable comfort and the other half it might be a bit of a fight.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Borthwick is the only coach in the world who is getting players playing much worse internationally than at their clubs.

Nah, his mentor EJ managed it for several years too

 

[ETbbcExile]

I honestly think this is a huge issue. The 6 Nations is the biggest advert for the sport and people have easy access to it, and by week 2 we pretty much knew the outcome. Maybe it's time for a shake up

It's the biggest issue facing the game. Ireland v Wales was turgid. This game at least had bit of running, but most of the time it was one out or two out rucking. Driving mauls are simply woeful.
Scrum restarts take way too long. Crouch, wait 5 secs, bind, wait 5 secs. It's ridiculous.
Refs spend energy on "no huddle" when there's a lineout and get ignored. How about blow the whistle and give a free kick? That might speed the game up.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

basic handling is way off where it needs to be

Was truly shocking today.

I posted a few days ago about how Ireland made far fewer short passes than anyone else - that's one aspect. But honestly, passing in front of someone, sympathetically at midriff level really shouldn't be that difficult. What do players do all day in training?

 

[Deleted member 88328]

It's the biggest issue facing the game. Ireland v Wales was turgid. This game at least had bit of running, but most of the time it was one out or two out rucking. Driving mauls are simply woeful.
Scrum restarts take way too long. Crouch, wait 5 secs, bind, wait 5 secs. It's ridiculous.
Refs spend energy on "no huddle" when there's a lineout and get ignored. How about blow the whistle and give a free kick? That might speed the game up.

With the issues around head injuries, this might be a good way to tackle both. Make the game faster and avoid the risk

 

[TommiG88]

The worst bit for me is I see no end in sight of the decline nor easy fixes. Everything from the tactics to selection to basic handling is way off where it needs to be and way below what these players produce at club level. I think Borthwick is the only coach in the world who is getting players playing much worse internationally than at their clubs.

I'd say half the premiership teams could beat England with reasonable comfort and the other half it might be a bit of a fight.

Half, I will still go with 8 and glos would push these lot close.

 

[duncanb]

Mitchell is out for two months….

Didn't realise thanks for info.

 

[TommiG88]

Mitchell was missed but he's not the reason we lost. We lost because we are inept.

 

[Zed]

England just don't have the skillset the play an expansive game. If they try that against Ireland they'll get done by 40 points, they'll just make too many mistakes. So it will be back to box-kicks.. worst thing to happen to England was making the WC semis and almost making the final. It's bought Borthwick another 12+ months. I reckon if England have a crap 2024, he'll still be in charge for the 2025 6N then he'll get the boot.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

VDM hat trick is the first ever by a Scot in the 6N, another to add to Borthwicks trophy cabinet. He is literally averaging a **** record every 1.5 games.

Didn't Blair Kinghorn score a hatrick a few years ago?

 

[Saintjay]

England just don't have the skillset the play an expansive game. If they try that against Ireland they'll get done by 40 points, they'll just make too many mistakes. So it will be back to box-kicks.. worst thing to happen to England was making the WC semis and almost making the final. It's bought Borthwick another 12+ months. I reckon if England have a crap 2024, he'll still be in charge for the 2025 6N then he'll get the boot.

Depends on what your defining as skills. The Saints backs and Quins have the handling, attack, off loading game. Other teams solid kicking, defence etc. It's not the skill set that's the issue. It's picking a game plan and then the best players for it.

Do Ireland really have that many players with a better skill set? Maybe they do but I feel it's more down to structure, tactics and a game plan that fits the squad. England aren't a settled team i just hope it improves because i don't think even Borthwick knows his first XV.

 

[AlRums]

Didn't Blair Kinghorn score a hatrick a few years ago?

He did, against Italy last year. VDM's was a first for a Calcutta Cup

 

[Zed]

Depends on what your defining as skills. The Saints backs and Quins have the handling, attack, off loading game. Other teams solid kicking, defence etc. It's not the skill set that's the issue. It's picking a game plan and then the best players for it.

Do Ireland really have that many players with a better skill set? Maybe they do but I feel it's more down to structure, tactics and a game plan that fits the squad. England aren't a settled team i just hope it improves because i don't think even Borthwick knows his first XV.

The players obviously have the skills as we see them perform well at club level. But something's not right. Perhaps they are so lacking in confidence that they're scared of making mistakes, scared of trying things that might not come off. I guess what really exemplified where they're at, 5 mins from fulltime, they're 10 points down and they box kick, Scotland catch the ball and keep possession. Even a Sunday pub team wouldn't do that. These are elite players. Surely at the post game video analysis session, someone out of the 50 man playing and coaching squad is going to point out that one specific moronic play and ask why there was a box kick? England will get pumped by Ireland and France and then what? Borthwick needs to go now.

 

[Mumbles119]

Congratulations Scotland. Great to see the Scots so clinical and converting all opportunities.

Actually enjoyed some of England's play too. The multiple errors at crucial moments were frustrating and I hope would get better as a team develops cohesion. I would like to see this England squad stick it out for while and believe it can develop as a wider squad group.

 

[Wasps92]

Depends on what your defining as skills. The Saints backs and Quins have the handling, attack, off loading game. Other teams solid kicking, defence etc. It's not the skill set that's the issue. It's picking a game plan and then the best players for it.

Do Ireland really have that many players with a better skill set? Maybe they do but I feel it's more down to structure, tactics and a game plan that fits the squad. England aren't a settled team i just hope it improves because i don't think even Borthwick knows his first XV.

Yeah Ugo Monye said the same. These players have no trouble catching and passing in the Prem. It's infuriating.

 

[Jimbo]

The players obviously have the skills as we see them perform well at club level. But something's not right. Perhaps they are so lacking in confidence that they're scared of making mistakes, scared of trying things that might not come off. I guess what really exemplified where they're at, 5 mins from fulltime, they're 10 points down and they box kick, Scotland catch the ball and keep possession. Even a Sunday pub team wouldn't do that. These are elite players. Surely at the post game video analysis session, someone out of the 50 man playing and coaching squad is going to point out that one specific moronic play and ask why there was a box kick? England will get pumped by Ireland and France and then what? Borthwick needs to go now.

Agree on the full time sentiment but in general I actually think for the most part it was easier to take positives for England in that game than any other this six nations, it was away against a Scotland team who are clearly better currently, their opportunities were kept relatively low just unfortunate for us they managed to make them count, if some of those balls stick which lead to knock ons momentum can build, OL uncharacteristically poor, returning from injury with a new defensive setup needs to be cut some slack. SB has started to make changes just not getting the rewards yet it won't happen over night but think there is enough there to call improvement and the spine of that team can be worked with, Furbank gave a descent account of himself didn't see anything myself to suggest any better or worse than Steward on that game alone, building depth there can only be a good thing going forward. Daly and Ford latest scape goats suppose their next in line now there isn't OF there to take that role on.

 

[Grizwald]

I was at the game yesterday my first at Murrayfield. I will say I was expecting more from the atmosphere the way its talked about. I've been to many games but the amount of folk constantly getting up like a jack in the box was an absolute pee take the rugby seemed secondary.....

I'm just a bit fed up with England now. I've got a little bit of sympathy at the start of the tournament as with injuries I don't think Borthwick had his be preferred set of backs but its actually hard to know whether Marcus Smith would have been his first choice 10 over Ford too. The unforced changes in the backs backfired today. I've seen Lawrence play 12 for Bath but he wasn't good today. I look at Wales and Gatlands mantra of focusing on the things that require little to no skill then watched England make umpteen handling errors. From where I was sitting it looked like England were trying to spread it wide at every opportunity and unforced errors let Scotland back into the game.

During his England career Care has been much better off the bench than starting but could see the logic with Spencer getting no game time. England just looked like they'd not played rugby before.

I'll be interested to see how the A side go. Next to no time together they can't be any worse than the first team was yesterday. Would it really be such a bad idea to try and form some club combination and just stick with it?

 

[g6mcg]

Very weird to see Scotland fairly comfortably beat England despite starting atrociously. Even the last 60 minutes were probably as bad as we've played in the 6N for a while (RWC is a made up tournament...)

Just a slight regret they couldn't have done this in my childhood, particularly during the years I was in England!

 

[Crash Hamster]

Hepburn/Millar-Mills front row, just drop the ball

Let's face it, Millar-Mills isn't even the second best rugby player in his family, and yet...

I find it odd that Bostik picks Ollie Lawrence on return from injury, but then doesn't start Ben Spencer; surely it can't be because he's not played any rugby?

Also, Bath supporters must be loving life when Spencer, Russell, Redpath and Lawrence are all on at the same time.

Overall, about as expected, England actually showed they could do some of "the attacking", but still looked mostly lacking in "the passing" and "the catching." It's definitely a side which is less than the sum of its parts. No-one can argue that it's the poor standard of the Premiership when England lose to a side scattered with fringe Prem players and English sides are doing much better than Scottish sides in Europe.

It has to be the Borthwick effect which is making standards drop.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Yeah Ugo Monye said the same. These players have no trouble catching and passing in the Prem. It's infuriating.

It's partly unfamiliarity with those around them and style of play, but also a reflection of the gap between prem and international - it's harder, faster with less room for error and under way more scrutiny. Performing in your comfort zone is one thing, but totally different when the pressure's on.