[2023 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 12 February 2023

[Noonz]

SB finally making selections people have been crying out for and then...

 

[Lé Ddanno]

If George is to play 80 again then Genge and Sinckler might as well too for all the impact (one scrum aside) their reps had last week.

 

[Umaga's Witness]

Overall the selection is pretty good, and scrapping the dual play maker is very welcome

However
1) There is a fundamental contradiction on the bench. You can bring all the exciting backs on to open up the game that you like, but then to have have Cole and Isiekwe ambling along in the middle of the pitch like last week in the last 15 mins means that your strategy will break down
2) No one is concerned about facing a team with Faz at 10, especially since his kicking stats (both International and Premiership) dropped, because you know 100% what he will do as he offers negligible running threat.

SB has made major steps forwards, but I fear the journey is a route to Leicester tactics which will be adequate and respectable, but against top level competition will get found out. SB still plays to a system and a plan which will only be reinforced when Evans goes. It is a strategy for mid table, not an attempt to win

Is evans going somewhere?

 

[Which Tyler]

Is evans going somewhere?

Back to Harlequins - he's just a temporary posting for the 6N.
Unknown yet if he'll return later or not, but suspicion is not.

 

[Reiser99]

Front 3 is an issue, because there is no clear depth at all. Mako is not the answer, but is anyone else honestly playing well enough to justify replacing him?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Yep. But I was talking about what I thought Borthwick would do…..

Anyway on to the actual selection.

Front 5 - fine although Cole feels more starter than sub.

Back row. Looks like we're back to the old days of 6.5s then. I don't actually think that's a bad thing at all if the players are of the right calibre. Hope Willis goes v well.

Half backs. If Farrell plays, which he will, then he's in the right shirt.

Centres. I like both players. But a brand new partnership and all I've seen of Lawrence recently has been at 13. I'm sure there's been loads of chat on here about how much he has / hasn't played 12 but I can't be arsed to look it up - is he out of position? Is Slade properly fit?

Back 3 - logical / consistent although I don't think either wing starts if everyone's fit and firing

Bench - I've mentioned Cole, Mako's meh and Arundell's lucky to be there at this stage of his return - just hope he doesn't feel the pressure to force it and is set back by mistakes. Hope Walker gets some decent game time.

If people are irritated it's more by changing from last week than this selection. What was the point of that midfield and Curry if they were to be ditched after one game? We have precious few opportunities before the RWC now.

And while Italy have improved, let's not over hype them. They're away from home and if they play as they did last week they'll give us opportunities that we won't have to work too hard for.

What if curry only starter because Willis wasn't for or missed the training? What happens if curry was only ever getting the one game then Willis the next so they both get experience?

What if Lawrence and Slade needed more time in training to be ready? I know Slade wasn't fit but maybe he was the starter and merchant the person to come in.

There are so many options but at the end of the day curry wasn't good enough, smith and Farrell didn't work. So the coach changes them and people moan.

 

[Grizwald]

Front 3 is an issue, because there is no clear depth at all. Mako is not the answer, but is anyone else honestly playing well enough to justify replacing him?

The general consensus is Val Rapava Ruskin has been in great form at Gloucester. He's good around the park and solid in the set peice. At 30 he should be in in prime for a prop.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Front 3 is an issue, because there is no clear depth at all. Mako is not the answer, but is anyone else honestly playing well enough to justify replacing him?

Rapava-Ruskin definitely is,
I've never been that big on him before but over the last season or so his form has sky rocketed,
Smashing people in the scrum and getting stuck in over the ball as well - probably the form loosehead in the Prem

 

[BiggusLaddus]

Where have all these Ollie's suddenly sprung from? I've known 1 Ollie all my life and now there are 3 in the England squad.

They're everywhere now, same in the cricket.
Ollie Pope, Ollie Robinson, Olly Stone has had to use a funky spelling just to stand out a bit.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

What if curry only starter because Willis wasn't for or missed the training? What happens if curry was only ever getting the one game then Willis the next so they both get experience?

What if Lawrence and Slade needed more time in training to be ready? I know Slade wasn't fit but maybe he was the starter and merchant the person to come in.

There are so many options but at the end of the day curry wasn't good enough, smith and Farrell didn't work. So the coach changes them and people moan.

It's the midfield that really annoys. Smith and Farrell hadn't worked under Jones, so Borthwick with a new coaching team picks them and then abandons after one game. What's the point in that? It's a fundamental shift. Slade being plan A at 13 is fine and if he needed another week Farrell and Lawrence could still have been paired at 10 and 12 last week with Slade just slotting in for Marchant.

Less of an issue, but the total dumping of B Curry - he didn't have a great game but to all intents and purposes it was his debut. Reading the press it sounds like Willis was always the preference at 7, which I'd agree with. So surely would have made sense for him to be involved somewhere last week even if from the bench. I can just about buy the not enough training time argument but that time was invested in B Curry who is not now involved, probably won't be barring injury, and at best is our 3rd choice and probably lower than that.

This week's line up makes more sense. Just struggling to rationalise some of his thinking from last.

 

[Reiser99]

It's the midfield that really annoys. Smith and Farrell hadn't worked under Jones, so Borthwick with a new coaching team picks them and then abandons after one game. What's the point in that? It's a fundamental shift. Slade being plan A at 13 is fine and if he needed another week Farrell and Lawrence could still have been paired at 10 and 12 last week with Slade just slotting in for Marchant.

Less of an issue, but the total dumping of B Curry - he didn't have a great game but to all intents and purposes it was his debut. Reading the press it sounds like Willis was always the preference at 7, which I'd agree with. So surely would have made sense for him to be involved somewhere last week even if from the bench. I can just about buy the not enough training time argument but that time was invested in B Curry who is not now involved, probably won't be barring injury, and at best is our 3rd choice and probably lower than that.

This week's line up makes more sense. Just struggling to rationalise some of his thinking from last.

On centres, wasn't Borthwick's hand forced a bit by injuries. We'll never know who he would have selected with everyone fit, but harsh to suggest he just abandoned plan A after one game.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

What if curry only starter because Willis wasn't for or missed the training? What happens if curry was only ever getting the one game then Willis the next so they both get experience?

What if Lawrence and Slade needed more time in training to be ready? I know Slade wasn't fit but maybe he was the starter and merchant the person to come in.

There are so many options but at the end of the day curry wasn't good enough, smith and Farrell didn't work. So the coach changes them and people moan.

You cant tell if someone isn't good enough after 1 game. You need to give them a run of games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

at the end of the day curry wasn't good enough

Was still much better than Dombrandt, but if I say that people get really mad

 

[Jimbo]

Was still much better than Dombrandt, but if I say that people get really mad

I'd agree with that, unfortunately for him he plays in a position which is fairly well contested where as Dombrandt, doesn't, there really isn't an English 8 absolutely putting his hand up just now.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

On centres, wasn't Borthwick's hand forced a bit by injuries. We'll never know who he would have selected with everyone fit, but harsh to suggest he just abandoned plan A after one game.

In terms of the unit, maybe. But the crucial position is 10 and he has absolutely ditched that through choice after one game, which effects the whole dynamic. I think the mistake was last week and hopefully we now have something to look forward to.

I'd agree with that, unfortunately for him he plays in a position which is fairly well contested where as Dombrandt, doesn't, there really isn't an eligible English 8 absolutely putting his hand up just now.

FTFY.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Was still much better than Dombrandt, but if I say that people get really mad

Yeah but who else goes to 8. Curry was weak in contact and probably only started because willis couldn't last week. I also thought Earl played way better than curry when he came on.

If Dombrant doesn't kick on we are stuck at 8 really where as we have flankers everywhere these days.

 

[HamJan]

Yeah but who else goes to 8. Curry was weak in contact and probably only started because willis couldn't last week. I also thought Earl played way better than curry when he came on.

If Dombrant doesn't kick on we are stuck at 8 really where as we have flankers everywhere these days.

What about Mercer?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about Mercer?

Not eligible atm, but Willis (Jr) should've been there for Simmonds this 6N really

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

England by 30

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Not eligible atm, but Willis (Jr) should've been there for Simmonds this 6N really

Yep.

Time's moved on but I always thought Morgan was discarded way too soon. Same age as Lawes and Youngs.

And the Barbeary enigma. Looking at the way we've been scrabbling around for hookers and with George's age / LCD's emigration he wouldn't be human if he hadn't occasionally thought 'what if'.