[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Not Eddie Jones]

Dan cole made it on tour?

Yikes! I'd forgotten that.

 

[ncurd]

Gatland unveils his 2017 Lions squad - British & Irish Lions

The website of the British & Irish Lions tour to South Africa 2021, playing three tests against the Rugby World Cup winning Springboks

www.lionsrugby.com

Looking at this squad, you'd imagine the forward options are comfortably better for Lions this tour. Dan cole made it on tour?

Completely forgot Jared Payne was supposed to go too

That squad was full of nonsense. Biggar but not Ford or Russell. Itoje had to force himself into the starting 15 but at the expense of Kruis (who should still be playing but ho hom) but AWJ had to get subbed in under 60mins anyway. Lanchburry didn't even go.

 

[Jakedood]

Yikes! I'd forgotten that.

You reckon Dan Biggar is even close to making it this time?

The wings should be a big step up too, no offense to Tommy Seymour

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lanchburry didn't even go.

That was so ridiculous,

Not as ridiculous as the "Geography Six" but really up there

You reckon Dan Biggar is even close to making it this time?

Almost definitely,
I think Gatland will take Biggar, Farrell and Russell

 

[ncurd]

You reckon Dan Biggar is even close to making it this time?

The wings should be a big step up too, no offense to Tommy Seymour

It's possible, he might even *shudders* start. Slim pickings for fly half this time around Ford and Russell are clearly not what Gatland looks for in the position considering last time out. Sexton is past it, Ireland have no clue who their no. 2 is. Farrell's in a huge rut and doesn't looks like getting back to his competent but nothing flashy best.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Gatland unveils his 2017 Lions squad - British & Irish Lions

The website of the British & Irish Lions tour to South Africa 2021, playing three tests against the Rugby World Cup winning Springboks

www.lionsrugby.com

Looking at this squad, you'd imagine the forward options are comfortably better for Lions this tour. Dan cole made it on tour?

Completely forgot Jared Payne was supposed to go too

I always loved the fact that his name sounds like dank hole and he once had "Git" spelled on his head in grass.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think this is one of the biggest reasons why people don't rate AWJ as a top player - the thing that supposedly makes him stand out, his leadership, winning mentality, raising a team above their level, inspiring his teammates, Captain Marvel etc - it's not something that anyone can measure in any viable way. And yet its stated by Welsh fans and media over and over and over again as some kind of factual thing that AWJ is the greatest rugby captain that ever lived and gives his team a 10-point buff every game just from his sheer, incredible leadership skills. Back in 2019 it was regularly cited as the reason that Wales won the GS, got to the WC semis etc. Then in 2020 when Wales couldn't beat anyone not named Italy or Georgia, AWJ's incredible leadership skills were absolved of all responsibility for his side losing and losing and losing again. And you wonder why people roll their eyes when we hear this stuff about AWJ?

Who knows who the best captain in rugby is - there's no legitimate way to measure it. So all we've got left is play on the field, and on that front, AWJ is good, solid, but limited. He rarely carries, and when he does, he makes no metres and often goes backwards. His passing is poor and never unlocks a defence, like say Itoje did with his pass to Underhill in the ANC game against Wales that led to an England try. He doesn't jackal ball at the breakdown like Itoje, Launchbury and even Hill now. He rarely steals lineout ball while often losing his own in the last year or so. Again, the Wales-England game in the ANC saw Wales lose 4 lineouts and England none. But it's okay, AWJ's a lock and the captain, so he's not responsible for Wales' consistently terrible lineout. For a captain, he doesn't really seem to be held responsible for anything... Oh, and he makes a lot of tackles, but not many dominant ones, like say Itoje or Lawes. And he had a terrible game against Scotland, giving away 4 penalties. By anyone's measure that's poor.

So no, he wouldn't get in the England squad. Eddie expects more of his locks than just making a lot of tackles and having some vaguely defined leadership superpowers. He expects them to have a big impact on the game in all sorts of areas: carrying, passing, jackaling, stealing lineouts, dominant tackles etc. Why do you think Eddie's so obsessed with locks?! And against SA in SA, that's exactly the kind of player you need. And AWJ just ain't it.

Well clearly I'm not saying that's all he's good for and obviously disagree with your assessment of him and Itoje as well. Mentality,
Leadership raising standards etc is just another strong in his bow along side his defence, ball Handling, hands, ball carrying etc etc. Now we're obviously going to disagree and naturally when you reach his age some areas of your game are going to diminish but others might improve. but I think it's harsh to use the last year with Covid and change of a manger as a stick to beat him with (especially after being great in a grand slam winning team the year before) but if anything I'd say his form in the last 2 games have been patchy. Was very good against Ireland and not so good against Scotland,
Mainly due to the pens (even if 2 were harsh) but he's a consistent as they come in my opinion and we'll have to wait and see how his performances are for the rest of the tournament. If he put in 3 more performances like he did against Scotland I would genuinely not take him on tour but the fact of the matter is he won't coz he's class. On the off chance he does then even I might accept his time might be coming to an end. Even that Scotland game though it wasn't like he was awful, in fact take away the pens and he had a decent game.

 

[MikeTheNative]

My current 2nd rows, if taking 5.
Itoje, Johnny Gray, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Johnny Hill (thought he has been decent so far, as long as he keeps same form throughout 6 nations). Alun Wyn Jones has been a fantastic servant to Wales but I'm not a fan of picking players for captain ability when there is players who are currently playing better.

 

[Jakedood]

Well clearly I'm not saying that's all he's good for and obviously disagree with your assessment of him and Itoje as well. Mentality,
Leadership raising standards etc is just another strong in his bow along side his defence, ball Handling, hands, ball carrying etc etc. Now we're obviously going to disagree and naturally when you reach his age some areas of your game are going to diminish but others might improve. but I think it's harsh to use the last year with Covid and change of a manger as a stick to beat him with (especially after being great in a grand slam winning team the year before) but if anything I'd say his form in the last 2 games have been patchy. Was very good against Ireland and not so good against Scotland,
Mainly due to the pens (even if 2 were harsh) but he's a consistent as they come in my opinion and we'll have to wait and see how his performances are for the rest of the tournament. If he put in 3 more performances like he did against Scotland I would genuinely not take him on tour but the fact of the matter is he won't coz he's class. On the off chance he does then even I might accept his time might be coming to an end. Even that Scotland game though it wasn't like he was awful, in fact take away the pens and he had a decent game.

Could you actually point to any moments in which you thought "wow AWJ, that is just class". I cant really remember seeing a dominant tackle, slick hands at the line, him making a half break, or even a big clearout

 

[ncurd]

My current 2nd rows, if taking 5.
Itoje, Johnny Gray, James Ryan, Tadhg Beirne, Johnny Hill (thought he has been decent so far, as long as he keeps same form throughout 6 nations). Alun Wyn Jones has been a fantastic servant to Wales but I'm not a fan of picking players for captain ability when there is players who are currently playing better.

Honest question what do you do also with proven players the likes of Launchburry (injured) and Kruis (not available for England selection but has barely played any competitive rugby)

Your also missing out Lawes whos proven quality with games under his belt and not playing in the wrong position. Hill's one for the future but probably won't do enough to break into the Lions.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Could you actually point to any moments in which you thought "wow AWJ, that is just class". I cant really remember seeing a dominant tackle, slick hands at the line, him making a half break, or even a big clearout

Yeah, the Ireland game. He put in a couple of monster hits and did some good work at the breakdown.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Well clearly I'm not saying that's all he's good for and obviously disagree with your assessment of him and Itoje as well. Mentality,
Leadership raising standards etc is just another strong in his bow along side his defence, ball Handling, hands, ball carrying etc etc. Now we're obviously going to disagree and naturally when you reach his age some areas of your game are going to diminish but others might improve. but I think it's harsh to use the last year with Covid and change of a manger as a stick to beat him with (especially after being great in a grand slam winning team the year before) but if anything I'd say his form in the last 2 games have been patchy. Was very good against Ireland and not so good against Scotland,
Mainly due to the pens (even if 2 were harsh) but he's a consistent as they come in my opinion and we'll have to wait and see how his performances are for the rest of the tournament. If he put in 3 more performances like he did against Scotland I would genuinely not take him on tour but the fact of the matter is he won't coz he's class. On the off chance he does then even I might accept his time might be coming to an end. Even that Scotland game though it wasn't like he was awful, in fact take away the pens and he had a decent game.

I think you've just inadvertently proved my point. No matter what AWJ does, Welsh fans make excuses for him. He's supposedly this awesome player and captain and one of the best in the world, but he's constantly absolved of responsibility anytime things go poorly.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Could you actually point to any moments in which you thought "wow AWJ, that is just class". I cant really remember seeing a dominant tackle, slick hands at the line, him making a half break, or even a big clearout

He does have a decent skill set to be fair, during Gatland they did use him as first receiver a bit where he was carrying or giving passes out the back. He's not been used like that since Privac and I doubt he will be to be honest.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Honest question what do you do also with proven players the likes of Launchburry (injured) and Kruis (not available for England selection but has barely played any competitive rugby)

Your also missing out Lawes whos proven quality with games under his belt and not playing in the wrong position. Hill's one for the future but probably won't do enough to break into the Lions.

Only considering players currently fit. Just too many ifs and butts for players not currently playing. My 5th choice was between Hill, Lawes and Henderson, all great players so I would be happy with any of them.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think you've just inadvertently proved my point. No matter what AWJ does, Welsh fans make excuses for him. He's supposedly this awesome player and captain and one of the best in the world, but he's constantly absolved of responsibility anytime things go poorly.

Ummm, nice selective reading there. Did you miss the bit where I said I wouldn't take him if he carried on performing like that. But yeah, I'm not going to hang out one of the greatest players to play for Wales who won a GS in 2019 for one average performance.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I mean I'd say you were 1.86 from 2.

Nah plenty of chance against us we've been playing ****, don't think many English would say there wasn't chance. France is a completely different ball game can't see anyone beating them this year, they barely got out of 2nd gear against Ireland.

So wait a minute, Itoje isnt going to win the game single handed?

 

[Jakedood]

He does have a decent skill set to be fair, during Gatland they did use him as first receiver a bit where he was carrying or giving passes out the back. He's not been used like that since Privac and I doubt he will be to be honest.

I remember this, however there's a difference between being used in this position and doing it really effectively. Mako and Kyle Sinckler almost throw no look passes out the back, and a lot later on, so they really engage and sell the defence before passing out the back, and this also opens up the tips option. They're fantastic at it, and I dont think other nations have really developed this skill as well as those two, i think theres a difference between having decent hands and being sued there, and having a real skillset for it

Yeah, the Ireland game. He put in a couple of monster hits and did some good work at the breakdown.

I honestly couldnt remember this, so did he steal ball or any big clearouts? Someone of England thread seems to find stats for players during games, would love if there's one to back this up about AWJ

 

[Jakedood]

So wait a minute, Itoje is going to win the game single handed?

You did just say if Wales won the GS he'd be a starter?
So can't really bemoan using teams success to pick players one way, and then advocate for it in another argument

 

[Welsh Exile]

I remember this, however there's a difference between being used in this position and doing it really effectively. Mako and Kyle Sinckler almost throw no look passes out the back, and a lot later on, so they really engage and sell the defence before passing out the back, and this also opens up the tips option


I honestly couldnt remember this, so did he steal ball or any big clearouts? Someone of England thread seems to find stats for players during games, would love if there's one to back this up about AWJ

Watch the game mate. Stats don't tell the whole story. Never have never will. Useful tool though.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You jdid just say if Wales won the GS he'd be a starter?
So can't really bemoan using teams success to pick players one way, and then advocate for it in another argument

Sorry I edited. That meant to say Itoje isn't going to win the game single handed? You know, coz he's sooooooooo good. Best player in the world. Another planet to what AWJ is on. Going to be a walk in the park.