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[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

You can talk of leadership all you want, and you need that win at all costs mentality for sure. But he doesnt need to start the games to bring that ethos to training, and the Lions will have that in abundance. Hogg is certainly a competitive guy in every chance he gets to compete, Itoje too, Ryan doesnt take a step back, then you have The Farrell's of the world, I think there's enough of this "off pitch stuff" that the Lions wont be lacking for it. Add to that the English players will be chomping at the bit to get back at SA

I'm not taking about him starting I'm just talking about him going which is a great achievement for any player. And unlike a lot of
The bitter English boys on here I respect any player (or 99%) that goes on a lions tour. Or has 150 odd caps.
 
And the reason he gets picked for
Lions tours is purely because Gats knows him even though he must also know deep down he is ****. Lol. Yeah, makes sense.

Makes even more sense that now he is freed from the burden of coaching Wales that he will still pick him for the squad. Makes you think, maybe, just maybe, he's a pretty good player.
No, for the Lions tour of Australia I'd say AWJ was one of the better lock choices in the country and deserved his spot. For New Zealand I'd say there were better locks but he had credit in the bank and familiarity with Gatland as well as offering captaincy experience so still a fair argument could be made for him going. Now? He has offered little as a lock and is actually becoming a liability with his penalty count and has started rubbing refs up the wrong way. His leadership has been lacking at times and now is finding he is the one getting wound up more than doing the winding up (although he still tries to wind up).

For South Africa no, he would not deserve a place in the main team, he would be fine playing in the side games.

Also nobody is claiming AWJ is **** except as a joke. He is still a good player, just he's not the best or deserving of a starting lock spot over the alternatives at this stage. Think of players like Robshaw, he was good and a workhorse who would deserve a place in a lions side games team but nobody would have advocated he be the starting flanker.
 
You could but they'd also be the same idiots who have hailed Farrell for being world class for years without really showing it.

You're so bitter about him. Love it. I never actually knew you boys were so butt hurt by him. It's great to see though. I guess it's going to be a walk in the park next week for you lads seeing as our captain is such a **** player and yours are so much better.
 
He can't lift a team above their ability and drag them over the winning line though. AWJ inspires and raises standards and thus the performanes of his team mates.
Has AWJ done this at all recently? I dont remember Wales winning much of anything in 2020 to verify this, and i think 2 red card showings arent exactly a good basis to prove this. Im not saying he isnt a good captain, but a team with more skills and ability will inspire each other to keep going

AWJ big plus is still his work rate, he does put his body on the line. Gray does the exact same, only is less vocal about it. Another issue for me is if AWJ did start he'd probably be captain, and that man does not have a way of dealing with refs, at all

However, despite the work rate, and body on the line stuff, I cant point to anything stand out as him being an exceptional player anymore. He does the basics well, but does he have Itoje's athleticism and power - No. Does he have James Ryan's ability to break the gain line nearly every time? No. Cant pick a player because of pure intangibles, and in a less talented second row era he would likely still get on the team. However with the current crop, I cant see that happening unless an injury occurs. And there are always injuries in a Lions tour
 
You're so bitter about him. Love it. I never actually knew you boys were so butt hurt by him. It's great to see though. I guess it's going to be a walk in the park next week for you lads seeing as our captain is such a **** player and yours are so much better.
On a side note... wouldn't it be funny if this time the red card was AWJ sent off after 12 minutes? Just the irony
 
On a side note... wouldn't it be funny if this time the red card was AWJ sent off after 12 minutes? Just the irony

Yeah hilarious.

Well, I must say, I'm really dreading next week and how badly AWJ is going to get bullied but the far superior world class English second rows. It'll be like 2019 all over again. Oh wait, even Cory Hill made Itoje look average in that game.
 
I'm not taking about him starting I'm just talking about him going which is a great achievement for any player. And unlike a lot of
The bitter English boys on here I respect any player (or 99%) that goes on a lions tour. Or has 150 odd caps.
Fair enough. He will go as they'll likely take 5 second rows, and I would say he makes that list

I'd say there's respect for AWJ, and lets be honest EJ would continue picking him til his legs fell off because the man doesnt like young bucks coming through (tongue in cheek)

Who would you start at second row?
 
Jeeprs chill out bro, Im not having a go. Just think after opening two games, if Wales got a red card at all, the poetic irony and balance of the world would somewhat shift. Id rather if it did happen, it happened v italy, and to see if they can capitalise
 
Fair enough. He will go as they'll likely take 5 second rows, and I would say he makes that list

I'd say there's respect for AWJ, and lets be honest EJ would continue picking him til his legs fell off because the man doesnt like young bucks coming through (tongue in cheek)

Who would you start at second row?

Like Gatland I'll wait until the end of the 6N to see if there's any injuries and what form has been like. If Wales win a GS then AWJ will move up the pecking order I'm sure, if we get done by England and France then I'm sure he'll be down to 5th choice and maybe not even go. A lot can change in a month or 2.
 
Like Gatland I'll wait until the end of the 6N to see if there's any injuries and what form has been like. If Wales win a GS then AWJ will move up the pecking order I'm sure, if we get done by England and France then I'm sure he'll be down to 5th choice and maybe not even go. A lot can change in a month or 2.I
I mean this is highly unlikely, but do you believe that if Wales somehow formed a successful team that makes AWJ better? Same if they lose, could be a poor team performance while he plays well, if you're picking the best players, the team they're with shouldnt matter
I'd argue not, but anyway if the first Lions test was tomorrow who would you pick? Im curious
 
In fairness AWJ has a lot of credit in the bank with this Englishman.

Rugby doesn't get much better than his 2010 trip on Hartley which saw him binned and Wales leek (see what I did there....) 17 points in those 10 mins which cost them the game.
 
I mean this is highly unlikely, but do you believe that if Wales somehow formed a successful team that makes AWJ better? Same if they lose, could be a poor team performance while he plays well, if you're picking the best players, the team they're with shouldnt matter
I'd argue not, but anyway if the first Lions test was tomorrow who would you pick? Im curious

Its really ******* difficult as the 2nd row is super competitive. What's the latest on Ryan's injury?

You know what, I can't do it, I'd need to wait until end of 6N. If you asked me a few weeks ago I would've probably said Itoje and Ryan but Itoje is going through one of his standard average patches at the moment.
 
I never said it was likely just if. And in case you haven't noticed we're 2 from 2 so it's on. I guess, we've got no chance against the mighty English though. Alas.
I mean I'd say you were 1.86 from 2.

Nah plenty of chance against us we've been playing ****, don't think many English would say there wasn't chance. France is a completely different ball game can't see anyone beating them this year, they barely got out of 2nd gear against Ireland.
 
Its really ******* difficult as the 2nd row is super competitive. What's the latest on Ryan's injury?

You know what, I can't do it, I'd need to wait until end of 6N. If you asked me a few weeks ago I would've probably said Itoje and Ryan but Itoje is going through one of his standard average patches at the moment.
Ryan will be back for Lions tour
Itoje is one of few good players for England I've thought? Certainly the only shining light v Scotland
 
He can't lift a team above their ability and drag them over the winning line though. AWJ inspires and raises standards and thus the performanes of his team mates.
I think this is one of the biggest reasons why people don't rate AWJ as a top player - the thing that supposedly makes him stand out, his leadership, winning mentality, raising a team above their level, inspiring his teammates, Captain Marvel etc - it's not something that anyone can measure in any viable way. And yet its stated by Welsh fans and media over and over and over again as some kind of factual thing that AWJ is the greatest rugby captain that ever lived and gives his team a 10-point buff every game just from his sheer, incredible leadership skills. Back in 2019 it was regularly cited as the reason that Wales won the GS, got to the WC semis etc. Then in 2020 when Wales couldn't beat anyone not named Italy or Georgia, AWJ's incredible leadership skills were absolved of all responsibility for his side losing and losing and losing again. And you wonder why people roll their eyes when we hear this stuff about AWJ?

Who knows who the best captain in rugby is - there's no legitimate way to measure it. So all we've got left is play on the field, and on that front, AWJ is good, solid, but limited. He rarely carries, and when he does, he makes no metres and often goes backwards. His passing is poor and never unlocks a defence, like say Itoje did with his pass to Underhill in the ANC game against Wales that led to an England try. He doesn't jackal ball at the breakdown like Itoje, Launchbury and even Hill now. He rarely steals lineout ball while often losing his own in the last year or so. Again, the Wales-England game in the ANC saw Wales lose 4 lineouts and England none. But it's okay, AWJ's a lock and the captain, so he's not responsible for Wales' consistently terrible lineout. For a captain, he doesn't really seem to be held responsible for anything... Oh, and he makes a lot of tackles, but not many dominant ones, like say Itoje or Lawes. And he had a terrible game against Scotland, giving away 4 penalties. By anyone's measure that's poor.

So no, he wouldn't get in the England squad. Eddie expects more of his locks than just making a lot of tackles and having some vaguely defined leadership superpowers. He expects them to have a big impact on the game in all sorts of areas: carrying, passing, jackaling, stealing lineouts, dominant tackles etc. Why do you think Eddie's so obsessed with locks?! And against SA in SA, that's exactly the kind of player you need. And AWJ just ain't it.
 

Looking at this squad, you'd imagine the forward options are comfortably better for Lions this tour. Dan cole made it on tour?

Completely forgot Jared Payne was supposed to go too
 

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