[2020 Six Nations] France vs England (02/02/20)

[TRF_Olyy]

I would just rather wait to see how those calls go before holding him accountable to them.

The problem is: Most of these calls aren't anything new.
4 years ago we were looking forward to seeing which 9s and 15s would be brought in, and we're still waiting.

 

[Which Tyler]

With Burt's squads, we were nitpicking over what? 6-7 of the selections?
With Eddie's squads, we are nitpicking over what? 2 of the selections?

Is Curry at 8 more "crazy" than Farrell at 12? or Pocock's first selection at 8? or Dallaglio's first selection at 8?
At 9 - he's had a look at Maunder, Simpson, Robson, Vellacott and Spencer - all have been involved in training squads, and all lack something that Eddie is looking for - yes it's frustrating, but I don't think it's blinkered.

The summer showed us 2 of the greatest England performances ever (alongside several other good performances, and some great halves) - possibly 2 of the greatest England performances ever, across any sport. That's not just "papering over the cracks". He's pushed the bar of "what can England do" higher than any other coach; we're just lacking the mental fortitude and consistency - which were the hallmarks of 2003 England - despite SCW being far crazier than Eddie.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is Curry at 8 more "crazy" than Farrell at 12?

I mean...yes? Obviously?
Farrell has played 12 since he was a kid (played there at early age grade alongside Ford).
Curry has never played 8.

At 9 - he's had a look at Maunder, Simpson, Robson, Vellacott and Spencer - all have been involved in training squads, and all lack something that Eddie is looking for - yes it's frustrating, but I don't think it's blinkered.

Well they're all competent scrumhalves so I guess that rules them out as being Youngs' heir.

 

[MarkyH]

I want to be excited but I'm not

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm in the camp that getting to the final masked a lot of things. Australia was a good performance, but expected against a far from vintage Wallabies. Neither the ABs nor Boks outcomes / performances could have been predicted.

The first couple of Jones years were bedding in but its been "his team" for a while and the recent history is erratic.,

2018. 6N W2 L3. Lost SA tour. I never put too much weight on the AIs, but we blew a gilt edged opportunity to beat ABs

2019. 6N W3 L1 D1.

For crying out loud we haven't beaten Sco since 17.......(we're English, we have a divine right ).

Some brilliance interspersed with some rubbish. And we used to wonder which France would turn up!

We're not in a bad place, but it could be better. Like Olyy my main frustration is the refusal to address some obvious and long running issues.

 

[MarkyH]

And that's only because of the lack of excitement in the squad. We should be building the team round players like Itoje, Underhill, Curry and the pace and speed in our backs. However we're still building it round an injured 8 and a crap 9. And the fact that EJ wants to put locks at 6 ffs.

Anyway, still win by at least 20. We're not as bad as we're making out and we do have some real class still. France evolving at the moment, if this game was the last one in this tournament I'd suggest France might win in Paris...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We're not as bad as we're making out and we do have some real class still.

Aye, don't get me wrong - I'm not saying we're **** there's just some changes we can make that could make a big difference to the side and push us to the next level.
If we can get to where we are with such poor play at 9 and 15 and an ever changing backrow built around a guy who's rarely there, then imagine what we could do if...we didn't do that?


We shouldn't be content with playing erratically and making the final - we should be striving to play consistently and win the final.

 

[MarkyH]

Totally agree Oly. There is so much potential there, and so much more that just isn't being acknowledged by EJ.

Anyways, can someone give me a quick rundown on Furbank? Looks good but not memorable when I've seen him on the Prem highlights, but he is a proper 15?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The problem is: Most of these calls aren't anything new.
4 years ago we were looking forward to seeing which 9s and 15s would be brought in, and we're still waiting.

and in those 4 years what 9's have really shone at club level as starters who you could say are international ready?
Robson? Talented 9 sure, but even with injury problems aside you could argue he lacked management.
Spencer? Wasn't even a regular Saracens starter for most of the 4 years
Who else?

What about 15?
Haley? who has done nothing in Ireland
Watson? 100% down to injuries IMO.
Goode? lol

How much are those positions down to Eddie and how much is down to production at clubs


RE 8 at the back row looks like Eddie is trying to get it so a England team can play without a out and out 8 too me.

 

[MikeTheNative]

To be fair I don't think you can know if a player is internationally ready until he get's a decent crack and Jones has been very tight in giving chances in some positions. I think he is a very good coach who on the whole has done well with England. That doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism though.

 

[Which Tyler]

To be fair I don't think you can know if a player is internationally ready until he get's a decent crack and Jones has been very tight in giving chances in some positions. I think he is a very good coach who on the whole has done well with England. That doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism though.

Of course not - And if he hadn't even looked at the players mentioned, I'd have criticised him. As it is, he's seen their club performances, brought them into camp, even handed them the odd cap - and has decided, based on much more evidence than anyone here, not to risk them.

Incidentally, whilst I've been defending Eddie in here - I don't think this is going to be a good 6N for us, and I think it's going to start with a loss in Paris - but I don't think it will be because we picked Curry over Hughes, though it may be down to Ben Youngs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Robson? Talented 9 sure, but even with injury problems aside you could argue he lacked management.
Spencer? Wasn't even a regular Saracens starter for most of the 4 years

They've not been tried - is my issue. Maybe they wouldn't have worked out, but Spencer and Robson haven't been given a fair shake of the stick at all when you look at how good they are at club level.
Maybe they'd have crumbled - but it would've been nice to have known rather than be in a situation where Youngs is clear first choice and our only other 9 is a guy who will likely have retired by the next RWC.
Like what's the point in Heinz? I didn't like, but I understood, him parachuting into the RWC squad because he was old and experienced enough to slot in right before the tournament started/after Robson got sick. What's the point in giving up valuable game time/experience to him now?

15, again, it's a case of not looking. We stuck with Brown for three years and then dropped him and shoe horned in Daly. Why did no one else get a sniff throughout the rest of the RWC cycle? Watson was fit all tournament - if he'd have been tried at 15 at any point throughout the other 3 years (think he missed one full year through injury?) then he could've easily played 15 then/now (if he wasn't injured).


If we'd tried alternatives and landed on Youngs/Daly as our first choice then whatever, I'm not their biggest fans but at least we looked at what else was about. We didn't, though, and it looks like that's going to continue. Looks like the same is happening in the backrow too - Binny is out so stick with tried and true Lawes, and shove an openside out of position until Binny is back again.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To be fair I don't think you can know if a player is internationally ready until he get's a decent crack and Jones has been very tight in giving chances in some positions. I think he is a very good coach who on the whole has done well with England. That doesn't mean he's exempt from criticism though.

hmm
I agree with that but also you can usually tell what players are going to be good enough for International level when they play club. (Usually).


Don't think he shouldn't be exempt from criticism.
But I do think he's earned enough credit to be given a chance to see if it's the right call.

Before the RWC people in the press was saying Eddie should be sacked and how England will be lucky to make the quarters.

Like I get that it's the start of a 4 year cycle and we should be looking for the future.
But it's a young enough squad as is, I can see why Eddie favours experience in some positions.

We have a summer tour to Japan that could be used to blood people like Randall etc, I don't see the extra benefit of not waiting TBH.

Not like we are coming off the back of a bad year and need to gut the squad.

 

[MikeTheNative]

What's his contract situation now? Is he still handing over after two years or will he be in charge for the next WC?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Eddie didn't even make wholesale changes for the 2016 6N's
Robshaw and Haskell both stayed and we had a record win streak.
and both got replaced at the right time by the right players.

So not entirely sure why people think he would do so with this one.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Interesting comparing Eddie's first 6 Nations squad to now.
Hooker
Hartley -> George
George -> LCD
LCD -> Dunn

Loosehead
Vunipola -> Vunipola
Marler -> Genge
Mullan -> Marler

Tighthead
Cole -> Sinckler
Hill -> Stuart
Thomas -> Williams

Locks
Same + Ewels and Moon

Back Row (-Vunipola)
Haskell -> Curry
Robshaw -> Underhill
Kvesic -> Ludlam
Clifford -> Hill
Beaumont -> Earl

Scrum Half
Youngs -> Youngs
Care -> Heinz

fly half (+Umaga)
Farrell -> Farrell
Ford -> Ford

Centre
Devoto -> Devoto
Hill -> Dingwall
Joesph -> Joesph
Daly -> Manu

Wing
Ashton -> May
Nowell -> Watson
Yarde -> Thorley

Full back
Brown -> Daly
Goode -> Furbank

 

[Scotty]

England team to face France:
George Furbank; Jonny May, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly; George Ford, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Charlie Ewels; Courtney Lawes, Sam Underhill, Tom Curry.

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ellis Genge, Will Stuart, George Kruis, Lewis Ludlam, Willi Heinz, Ollie Devoto, Jonathan Joseph.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

England team to face France:
George Furbank; Jonny May, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Elliot Daly; George Ford, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler; Maro Itoje, Charlie Ewels; Courtney Lawes, Sam Underhill, Tom Curry.

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ellis Genge, Will Stuart, George Kruis, Lewis Ludlam, Willi Heinz, Ollie Devoto, Jonathan Joseph.

So we are playing a 15 at 15 and not on the wing people should be happy with that at least.

Honestly I like it.
Would rather Itoje swapped with Lawes if anything.

Stuart, Genge and LCD coming off the bench could add something spicy

 

[NickBD]

EJ does love Ewels a lot. Probably in minority on this one. He's a good player and I don't hate this selection but can think of many better English locks. Makes me think if Launchbury was fit would he have started. Ewels always seemed to be his understudy in EJ squads.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Fair fucks, I know very little about Furbank but happy to see him at 15. Less room for Daly's positioning to show him up on the wing, which is good.

Lawes shouldn't be in the 23 let alone starting at 6, but whatever. EJ gonna EJ.