[2020 Six Nations] France vs England (02/02/20)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Curry the best 7 we've had in years, ends up playing mainly at 6 and then moved to 8?

Is Eddie a troll, or are we just too narrow minded? I always viewed Underhill as more of a 6 who could cover 7 then the other way round but that's just me????

Lawes at 6 weakens the rucks and the carrying game of the forwards....that's from a saints fan.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lawes is living off his highlight reel borderline-late hits, I don't think he offers much of anything at the international level.



Curry at 8 is just a joke - what is it with English coaches and picking pants-on-head-retarded backrow combinations?
Why not just play a 6 a 7 and an 8? Or if you're feeling fruity go for 2x7 and and an 8

 

[MikeTheNative]

To me Lawes is a player who can cover 6 in a game if someone goes off injured, I don't think he should be starting at test level there. I agree about Daly at 15, he's never really looked that comfortable there. It's not like his is improving in that regard either. I still think England should have enough to beat the French who could not be far off naming a U20 team!

 

[spartan32]

Lawes is living off his highlight reel borderline-late hits, I don't think he offers much of anything at the international level.



Curry at 8 is just a joke - what is it with English coaches and picking pants-on-head-retarded backrow combinations?
Why not just play a 6 a 7 and an 8? Or if you're feeling fruity go for 2x7 and and an 8

I agree with this to a certain extent, although one of those highlight reels was Lawes flattening a certain French 10 I believe, which always makes me smile. His height makes him another jump option in the line and maybe EJ is intending on playing a more kicking and territorial game. Target those young French back with some bombs and well placed grubbers, keep them on their heels and having to think defensively all the time?

Never really understood the fuss of moving 6/7 to 8. Is it really that specialist? The only thing they seem to do that is different is pick the ball off the back of the scrum and occasionally pass it to the 9 or run direct into traffic. It's hardly rocket science? I accept that a decent 8 adds weight and strength at scrum time and Curry doesn't seem as beefy as some other options, but then again we had 20kgs on SA in the final and they smashed us all day long. But I am a back by trade so won't pretend to understand too much about the dark arts of Scrum.

on another note not surprised to see the Daly at 15 thing raise its ugly head, again. I think we all just need to get over it now. He did a good enough job at the WC to keep his shirt. He's no where near as good as May or Watson at 11/14 and he's certainly not taking a centre birth, and EJ clearly wants him on the field for a starting team, and so the only place left is FB. I really think that's all there is to it.

mother than that the rest of the team that's mentioned previously seems about right. No real shockers in there. Be interesting to see what the bench may look like?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I see 8 as a totally specialist position.

On the flanks I don't mind interchangeable provided they have the right skill set. Curryhill both do and so does Willis. Not sure Ludlam quite has, Hackshaw definitely didn't.

Lawes shouldn't start at flank although as a horse for course selection there is a certain logic if the plan is just to beat up the French kids. Unlike Olyy I think he still offers a lot although I have a preference for heavier duty locks.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

France team to face England

15. Anthony Bouthier (Montpellier)
14. Teddy Thomas (Racing 92)
13. Virimi Vakatawa (Racing 92)
12. Gaël Fickou (Stade Français)
11. Damian Penaud (Clermont)
10. Romain Ntamack (Toulouse)
9. Antoine Dupont (Toulouse)

1. Cyril Baille (Toulouse)
2. Julien Marchand (Toulouse)
3. Mohamed Haouas (Montpellier)
4. Bernard Le Roux (Racing 92)
5. Paul Willemse (Montpellier)
6. François Cros (Toulouse)
7. Charles Ollivon (Toulon) (c)
8. Grégory Alldritt (La Rochelle)

Replacements:

16. Peato Mauvaka (Toulouse)
17. Jefferson Poirot (Bordeaux-Bègles)
18. Demba Bamba (Lyon)
19. Boris Palu (Racing 92)
20. Cameron Woki (Bordeaux-Bègles)
21. Baptiste Serin (Toulon)
22. Matthieu Jalibert (Bordeaux-Bègles)
23. Vincent Rattez (La Rochelle)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If the pack can get some decent ball those backs could cause some real damage. This is not a done deal.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

No one's putting out a more dangerous backline than that this 6n. Penaud, Thomas and Vakatawa with those halfbacks is filthy.

 

[MikeTheNative]

With all the talk of how green the squad was, there's quite a lot experience there added to a few guys with a handful of caps but a lot of promise. That's a pretty decent team on the whole, looking forward to the game. When do England name their side?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We don't name ours until tomorrow

 

[Leinster Fan]

Never really understood the fuss of moving 6/7 to 8. Is it really that specialist? The only thing they seem to do that is different is pick the ball off the back of the scrum and occasionally pass it to the 9 or run direct into traffic. It's hardly rocket science? I accept that a decent 8 adds weight and strength at scrum time and Curry doesn't seem as beefy as some other options, but then again we had 20kgs on SA in the final and they smashed us all day long. But I am a back by trade so won't pretend to understand too much about the dark arts of Scrum.

Leinster tried Leavy at 8 last season and it was nothing short of a disaster, it completely nullified him. Went from one of our most influential players to a liability. Curry is a relatively similar player so I wouldn't be surprised to see this have the same impact on him.

I know nothing about scrums but the impression I get is that we tend to underestimate picking the ball from the back of the scrum because any half-competent 8 could do it in their sleep but if a player isn't used to it it probably is pretty difficult, especially if you have to do it at international level without much prior experience. (Could be completely wrong here, genuinely interested to hear what people who've actually played 8 have to say). That's before you take the fact that the 8 in general plays a fairly different role to the flankers, although to be fair to Eddie he presumably has a plan for how best to utilise Curry there if he is planning to play him at 8.

This is all said with the caveat that I don't know how much Curry has ever played at 8, I assume he must have done it before at some point before, so it could be that he has a decent amount of experience there and the challenge is just transfering that to international level.

I wouldn't be too put off by it if I was English though, this is a major step away from a longstanding over reliance on Billy Vunipola. Playing Curry there means he's envisioning something radically different to what he wants from his 8 instead of just trying to shoehorn in a player to try and replicate what Vunipola does which has invariably failed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This is all said with the caveat that I don't know how much Curry has ever played at 8, I assume he must have done it before at some point before, so it could be that he has a decent amount of experience there and the challenge is just transfering that to international level.

Never at club level - think he might have packed down there when players got subbed off late in an England game before, but even then I can't actually think of when it happened. Maybe RWC warm up game?
He has, essentially, no experience playing there.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Leinster tried Leavy at 8 last season and it was nothing short of a disaster, it completely nullified him. Went from one of our most influential players to a liability. Curry is a relatively similar player so I wouldn't be surprised to see this have the same impact on him.

I know nothing about scrums but the impression I get is that we tend to underestimate picking the ball from the back of the scrum because any half-competent 8 could do it in their sleep but if a player isn't used to it it probably is pretty difficult, especially if you have to do it at international level without much prior experience. (Could be completely wrong here, genuinely interested to hear what people who've actually played 8 have to say). That's before you take the fact that the 8 in general plays a fairly different role to the flankers, although to be fair to Eddie he presumably has a plan for how best to utilise Curry there if he is planning to play him at 8.

This is all said with the caveat that I don't know how much Curry has ever played at 8, I assume he must have done it before at some point before, so it could be that he has a decent amount of experience there and the challenge is just transfering that to international level.

I wouldn't be too put off by it if I was English though, this is a major step away from a longstanding over reliance on Billy Vunipola. Playing Curry there means he's envisioning something radically different to what he wants from his 8 instead of just trying to shoehorn in a player to try and replicate what Vunipola does which has invariably failed.

Leavy at 6 was only ever serviceable as well, granted he was playing with a significantly smaller VdF or SOB, who had his foot in the grave by then, and not Underhill but having a Curry/Leavy quality 7 and not accomodating them to play to their strengths is nuts. Schmidt learnt pretty quickly and I don't understand how Jones (if the rumours are true) hasn't after all his success of late has been with Curry being allowed to focus on his strengths.

Maybe he has something mad up his sleeve and it'll pay off but I'll need convincing. A broken backrow has resulted in fairly tragic years for the top three six nations teams recently enough so he must be wise to it.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Leinster tried Leavy at 8 last season and it was nothing short of a disaster, it completely nullified him. Went from one of our most influential players to a liability. Curry is a relatively similar player so I wouldn't be surprised to see this have the same impact on him.

I know nothing about scrums but the impression I get is that we tend to underestimate picking the ball from the back of the scrum because any half-competent 8 could do it in their sleep but if a player isn't used to it it probably is pretty difficult, especially if you have to do it at international level without much prior experience. (Could be completely wrong here, genuinely interested to hear what people who've actually played 8 have to say). That's before you take the fact that the 8 in general plays a fairly different role to the flankers, although to be fair to Eddie he presumably has a plan for how best to utilise Curry there if he is planning to play him at 8.

This is all said with the caveat that I don't know how much Curry has ever played at 8, I assume he must have done it before at some point before, so it could be that he has a decent amount of experience there and the challenge is just transfering that to international level.

I wouldn't be too put off by it if I was English though, this is a major step away from a longstanding over reliance on Billy Vunipola. Playing Curry there means he's envisioning something radically different to what he wants from his 8 instead of just trying to shoehorn in a player to try and replicate what Vunipola does which has invariably failed.

played 8 like once at the end of a game but from a refereeing point of view an inexperienced 8 can completley **** ball up at scrum time.

steadying the ball for the scrum half isn't exactly easy. Marching down the field keeping all at your field is also a unique skill. Assuming any loose forward can play 8 is a big mistake.

but eddie seems to think every position in rugby is interchangeable and he's done a great job as a coach. I'm sure he has curry prepared and has a game plan to minimize his exposure to ******* up.

 

[NickBD]

25 man squad for France. Watson injured so almost certain to see one of Thorley or Furbank start.

Forwards

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)

Backs

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I know nothing about scrums but the impression I get is that we tend to underestimate picking the ball from the back of the scrum because any half-competent 8 could do it in their sleep but if a player isn't used to it it probably is pretty difficult, especially if you have to do it at international level without much prior experience.

And doubly so if your props are having their heads shoved up their backsides and going backwards at a rate of knots.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

25 man squad for France. Watson injured so almost certain to see one of Thorley or Furbank start.

Forwards

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)

Backs

Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Pleased to see Stuart and Devoto in. Presumably a LHP will drop out, but no idea what his thinking will be in the backs. Maybe whichever of Thorley or Furbank doesn't start (although I wouldn't put it past him to play JJ on the wing).

 

[Roady26]

What I would like to see out of that squad I guess:

Genge
George
Sinks
Kruis
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Ludlam
Heinz
Faz
May
Manu
JJ
Thorley
Watson

Mako
LCD
Stuart
Ewels
Lawes
Youngs
Devoto
Daly

Genge needs minutes, with the WC over theres not point sitting him behind Marler and we know what Mako can do.
Big call playing Stuart for the opener but with no Williams in the squad its sink or swim, I imagine Sinks will play 60+ mins.
Kruis is off to Japan so I would tend to put Lawes in starting but then there is no one at all who can cover backrow on the bench.
Ludlam has a little experience playing 8, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the rumours about Curry at 8 be true.
Heinz>Youngs
No Ford because if you are bringing in new backs then completely swapping your play-maker system halfway through it just makes things messier.
I want to see Devoto come on for Manu at some point.
Watson at fullback because you just would if you could - but it won't happen.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd say that pretty much guarantees a Lawes-Underhill-Curry back row.

 

[Roady26]

And doubly so if your props are having their heads shoved up their backsides and going backwards at a rate of knots.

Leinster tried Leavy at 8 last season and it was nothing short of a disaster, it completely nullified him. Went from one of our most influential players to a liability. Curry is a relatively similar player so I wouldn't be surprised to see this have the same impact on him.

I know nothing about scrums but the impression I get is that we tend to underestimate picking the ball from the back of the scrum because any half-competent 8 could do it in their sleep but if a player isn't used to it it probably is pretty difficult, especially if you have to do it at international level without much prior experience. (Could be completely wrong here, genuinely interested to hear what people who've actually played 8 have to say).

It's not as easy as it looks, especially if your going backwards and you have their 9 and flankers all over you and the locks hooves making a mess of the ball. There can be quite a lot of decision making with your 9 and 10 about options based on field position etc. Also a big carry early in the game keeps their flankers honest and their half-backs wary every scrum in case you pick again. If you have a stable scrum then its not so hard to let your 9 dig it out from under your feet if you are inexperienced/covering 8 but your 10 won't thank you if their openside and 9 are all over him all game - or having to kick clear from the deadball line everytime in your own 22.