[2019 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (02/02/2019)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Player vs player matchups are incredibly pointless when one team has been in incredible form and the other has been quite dreadful. It's only interesting when both teams are in some form. Take Elliott Daly. He's at his lowest ever ebb in what has been a pretty meteoric rise in status - it then invites people to describe him as a "poor mans" *insert player here*. But on form, when he's not sulking and his head is in the game, he's one of the most talented backs in the northern hem.
People often end up making judgments which they think are about player quality when they're actually more about current form.
There's also the fact that player X coached by Schmidt is 9 times out of 10 preferable to same player X coached by anyone else.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

That is what England I feel lack. A quality set piece operator.

George Kruis is a quality lineout operator and we have one of the greatest (and boring and uninspiring, but still...) Lineout practioners of all time as a Coach in Steeeeeve Borthwick.

Our problem is that Kruis can go off the boil around the park and make mistakes defensively. Toner is so effective because, as has been pointed out - he has a consistently positive impact on all the key areas of the game.

To expand on this (and cause some controversy): I think, playing at their best, this England team would and should beat Ireland. We have more players who are capable of a level of performance that their Irish counterparts aren't.

In my opinion, the reason Ireland are the better team (and better individual rugby players for the most part) is because they are so consistently good and always seem to operate at 80-90% of their maximum potential. In part that's coaching, in part it's experience and the rest just seems to be a general temperament that is possibly a product of the two aforementioned things or maybe it's just something in the water across the Irish sea!

Not intending to disrespect the Irish players with this statement - mental strength and consistency of performance are at least as admirable and important as physical ability. If it only came down to the latter, the All Blacks would win every single game they played and Roger Federer would be nowhere near the most successful player of all time.

Looking forward to a good-natured and peaceful meeting of sides at the weekend.

England by 12.

 

[big ginger 8]

Typical Irish making this thread all about them.

So self centred.

You're right we should spend more time hyping some current or just overage English u20 star, who is now 'tearing up' the Premiership, as the saviour of English rugby, be outraged for a while about them not getting a chance in any important matches, wait for them to get a few big games, not be world player of the year and then be annoyed whenever they are picked.

See Slade, Henry for a good example from the last few years.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You're right we should spend more time hyping some current or just overage English u20 star, who is now 'tearing up' the Premiership, as the saviour of English rugby, be outraged for a while about them not getting a chance in any important matches, wait for them to get a few big games, not be world player of the year and then be annoyed whenever they are picked.

See Slade, Henry for a good example from the last few years.

WOW

Who stole the jam out of your potato?

and just wait till Curry destroys your poverty back row.

 

[Leinster Fan]

George Kruis is a quality lineout operator and we have one of the greatest (and boring and uninspiring, but still...) Lineout practioners of all time as a Coach in Steeeeeve Borthwick.

Our problem is that Kruis can go off the boil around the park and make mistakes defensively. Toner is so effective because, as has been pointed out - he has a consistently positive impact on all the key areas of the game.

To expand on this (and cause some controversy): I think, playing at their best, this England team would and should beat Ireland. We have more players who are capable of a level of performance that their Irish counterparts aren't.

In my opinion, the reason Ireland are the better team (and better individual rugby players for the most part) is because they are so consistently good and always seem to operate at 80-90% of their maximum potential. In part that's coaching, in part it's experience and the rest just seems to be a general temperament that is possibly a product of the two aforementioned things or maybe it's just something in the water across the Irish sea!

Not intending to disrespect the Irish players with this statement - mental strength and consistency of performance are at least as admirable and important as physical ability. If it only came down to the latter, the All Blacks would win every single game they played and Roger Federer would be nowhere near the most successful player of all time.

Looking forward to a good-natured and peaceful meeting of sides at the weekend.

England by 12.

I know what you mean, but I'd disagree. I'd say if you look through the teams most of our player have a higher peak than their counterparts.
(This is just comparing the players maximum performance levels, not current form etc.)
Healy v Vunipola ... equal mostly although I'd say the Healy of eight years ago is better
Best v George... George
Furlong v doesn't really matter who he's better anyway
Ryan and Itoje from the locks by a distance
POM at his best is the best player on the pitch (only hits that level every few games though)
Vdf v Curry.. Draw
Stander < Vunipola
Murray and Sexton by a mile
Tualagi abf Ringrose
And then Stockdale, May and Daly.

Overall if both teams play their very best I'd say we'd win by more than 7 because of home advantage and much better coaching and in-game decision making.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Take Elliott Daly. He's at his lowest ever ebb in what has been a pretty meteoric rise in status - it then invites people to describe him as a "poor mans" *insert player here*. But on form, when he's not sulking and his head is in the game, he's one of the most talented backs in the northern hem.

Overstating it somewhat for someone who's not even the best in any one position in his country.

Good player when on form, highlight reel stuff when given space (which Ire won't) and his kicking game's good. But if everyone's fit he's bench for me.

 

[big ginger 8]

WOW

Who stole the jam out of your potato?

@Groundhog I think.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

George Kruis is a quality lineout operator and we have one of the greatest (and boring and uninspiring, but still...) Lineout practioners of all time as a Coach in Steeeeeve Borthwick.

Our problem is that Kruis can go off the boil around the park and make mistakes defensively. Toner is so effective because, as has been pointed out - he has a consistently positive impact on all the key areas of the game.

I think Kruis is hugely underrated. Before injury he was Eng's standout lock hence his selection for the 1st Lions test having barely played. He's not flash, albeit he made a stunning break the other week which he really should have scored from, but he just seems to be one of those "glue" players.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I know what you mean, but I'd disagree. I'd say if you look through the teams most of our player have a higher peak than their counterparts.
(This is just comparing the players maximum performance levels, not current form etc.)
Healy v Vunipola ... equal mostly although I'd say the Healy of eight years ago is better
Best v George... George
Furlong v doesn't really matter who he's better anyway
Ryan and Itoje from the locks by a distance
POM at his best is the best player on the pitch (only hits that level every few games though)
Vdf v Curry.. Draw
Stander < Vunipola
Murray and Sexton by a mile
Tualagi abf Ringrose
And then Stockdale, May and Daly.

Overall if both teams play their very best I'd say we'd win by more than 7 because of home advantage and much better coaching and in-game decision making.

I reckon Henshaw's best rugby at 15 is better than Daly's if you're taking all players at their peak, he's just changed physically so much since then. Don't let Olyy bully you into his crazy ways either, Curry has never shown anything close to approaching VdF vs NZ, 2016 or 2018!

Ringrose should probably be in their about four times too, he's that good.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I know what you mean, but I'd disagree. I'd say if you look through the teams most of our player have a higher peak than their counterparts.
(This is just comparing the players maximum performance levels, not current form etc.)
Healy v Vunipola ... equal mostly although I'd say the Healy of eight years ago is better
Best v George... George
Furlong v doesn't really matter who he's better anyway
Ryan and Itoje from the locks by a distance
POM at his best is the best player on the pitch (only hits that level every few games though)
Vdf v Curry.. Draw
Stander < Vunipola
Murray and Sexton by a mile
Tualagi abf Ringrose
And then Stockdale, May and Daly.

Overall if both teams play their very best I'd say we'd win by more than 7 because of home advantage and much better coaching and in-game decision making.

I don't really disagree with any of the picks above, other than Mako - who I think on his best day is better than Healy by some margin. The difference I think is that England have more players who if they have an absolute stormer, they can just take over a game because of their particular talents. As an example, Conor Murray is a miles better scrum half than Youngs and probably the best in the world. But what does him at 100% mean? Every box kick is perfect - 90% already are, service is perfect - most of the time it is, and so on.

If Mako, Itoje, Billy and Manu are all 100% (which they almost never ever are individually, let alone collectively) they can take over a game. Ireland don't have many players like that; maybe Stockdale, maybe O'Brien. Sexton is already at about 90% in every game anyway which is why he is so good. I guess the point I'm doing a bad job of making is that if everyone did play at 100%, executed their skills perfectly etc. England have some players that can take things to a level that is just way above their Irish counterparts. Sexton is a better 10 than Farrell, but if they both execute at 100%, there isn't going to be a massive difference, neither is breaking 4 tackles and going the length. If Billy or Manu are firing, there probably aren't as devastating ball carriers anywhere else in the world, let alone in Ireland.

It's basically a null point anyway, as I simply cannot see England ever playing close to that level of consistency - nor even the 70%+ that they would need to genuinely challenge for the world cup this year. But someone at the RFU should be breaking the bank to try and find a way (or a coach) to get there, because skills and talent are not the issue, regardless of what the tiring rhetoric coming out of NZ is...

 

[Leinster Fan]

I don't really disagree with any of the picks above, other than Mako - who I think on his best day is better than Healy by some margin. The difference I think is that England have more players who if they have an absolute stormer, they can just take over a game because of their particular talents. As an example, Conor Murray is a miles better scrum half than Youngs and probably the best in the world. But what does him at 100% mean? Every box kick is perfect - 90% already are, service is perfect - most of the time it is, and so on.

If Mako, Itoje, Billy and Manu are all 100% (which they almost never ever are individually, let alone collectively) they can take over a game. Ireland don't have many players like that; maybe Stockdale, maybe O'Brien. Sexton is already at about 90% in every game anyway which is why he is so good. I guess the point I'm doing a bad job of making is that if everyone did play at 100%, executed their skills perfectly etc. England have some players that can take things to a level that is just way above their Irish counterparts. Sexton is a better 10 than Farrell, but if they both execute at 100%, there isn't going to be a massive difference, neither is breaking 4 tackles and going the length. If Billy or Manu are firing, there probably aren't as devastating ball carriers anywhere else in the world, let alone in Ireland.

It's basically a null point anyway, as I simply cannot see England ever playing close to that level of consistency - nor even the 70%+ that they would need to genuinely challenge for the world cup this year. But someone at the RFU should be breaking the bank to try and find a way (or a coach) to get there, because skills and talent are not the issue, regardless of what the tiring rhetoric coming out of NZ is...

I understand your point but I don't fully agree with it, I think that players like Sexton, O'Mahony and Ringrose can and have taken over games. O'Brien off the bench as well obviously. As I say if both teams played their best then I think it would come down to home advantage.

I fully agree with your last point though, there's loads of talent in England, the structure and coaching at the top level is the problem. Not to start old discussions but you guys should have kept Lancaster in some capacity (not involved with the senior team, his position was untenable) in the wider setup. He's probably one of the best people at developing talent in the world. The amount of players who have vastly improved (in some cases beyond levels I thought they could hit) since he came to Leinster is ridiculous.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Found this cute pic, might post more later.

 

[Amiga500]

Typical Irish making this thread all about them.

So self centred.

We're a right pack of feckers at doing that all right.

 

[Groundhog]

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[Every Time Ref]

*scroll*
Ford Vs Farrell
*scroll*
*scroll*
Irishmen arguing
*scroll*
Many Tuilagi injured
*scroll*
*scroll*
More fighting Irish

This thread is everything I expected

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Found this cute pic, might post more later.

When you see lovely big glass of soy milk on the sidelines

 

[Jockstap]

Yeah, he's better than Buckley and Byrne and contributes more positively to his side. Kilcoyne has been good but Jack's fundamentals are still better. I don't put an awful lot of stock in form, the cream rises to the top at international level regardless of it it more often than not and Jack has been better for Ireland than he's been for Leinster. Again, his dip is being massively overstated, he peaked in the season leading up to the Lions and dipped during the tour and for a few months after, he's since been as good as he has for most of his career, a good international prop.


No but what you said, "he wasn't up to the form of others", is wrong.
Cullen had this to say at the time "With Jack it was touch and go with him. He got through some minutes last week, but Ed Byrne has been going really well." I read it as he could have played but a fully fit Byrne who had trained all week was a better option, it's kind of how I see this anomoly in selection panning out too.



No, but this is a strange fallacy you use in your arguments that I tend to ignore.



Lose or draw that match and we get an away QF, it's not a game to experiment.


I think you're trying to justify Kilcoyne's selection by ******** on McGrath, you don't have to, the guy is playing well and deserves a shot. Saying you think Buckley and possibly even Byrne are ahead of McGrath really detracts from your point, because that's wrong.

Eddie O'Sullivan and Deccie Kidneys love child over here. Thank Jebus for Joe Schmidt.

 

[curtbob7]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47093532

Quality Bants from Rory. You're walking over Sincks and Vunipola for the first 50-55 mins

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Eddie O'Sullivan and Deccie Kidneys love child over here. Thank Jebus for Joe Schmidt.

Who has received tonnes of criticism throughout his tenure for not picking "on form"?