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[2019 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (02/02/2019)

You're fast and loose with the word fact pal!
Which part have I said that is wrong so?

Are you saying he has outplayed Kilcoyne Buckley or Healy and even Byrne recently?

Are you saying he was ruled out injured for Toulouse game?

Are you saying Leinster fans in some sections are not saying he has dipped since Lions?

Are you saying before Leinster played Wasps away there was high risk of not making QFs?

On form Jack McGrath walks in to 23 if not 15 ahead of Kilcoyne.
On form of last few months McGrath is lucky to be ahead of Buckley IMO.
 
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(Looks into crystal ball)

After an unfortunate game-ending injury to Peter O'Mahoney, ending his day (though not serious enough to keep him out going forward), England grabs the momentum and surprises the crowd in Dublin by squeaking out an

England 12
Ireland 10

victory, causing the English press to spend a whole week writing about how England was better all along, despite this being untrue. Too specific? :)
 
I don't think McGrath has been as bad as you say, he's been good mostly for Leinster. Not amazing by any means, but definitely good. I certainly don't think Buckley has been noticeably better by any means.

Ed Byrne has been pushing him at Leinster but that shouldn't be a surprise, he's a really talented player who's been great this season and will probably go on to win international caps. It's easy to forget the fact that he missed two years because of injury. McGrath hasn't been a world beater by any stretch of the imagination over the last year but equally he was good against Wasps and excellent against the Scarlets. He was very effective coming off the bench in last years Six Nations as well and I'd be surprised if he doesn't get on the pitch in this year's tournament.

That said, Kilcoyne has been excellent for Munster and fully merits this, just as Ed Byrne 100% deserved his spot against Toulouse. I've no issue with this selection and I provably would have gone for the same if I was picking the team. That all said, it's less than two years ago that McGrath was widely considered one of the best props in the world, he's a test Lion and he's starting to show some of that form, I'd fully expect him to be comfortably in the first choice 23 by the World Cup.
 
(Looks into crystal ball)

After an unfortunate game-ending injury to Peter O'Mahoney, ending his day (though not serious enough to keep him out going forward), England grabs the momentum and surprises the crowd in Dublin by squeaking out an

England 12
Ireland 10

victory, causing the English press to spend a whole week writing about how England was better all along, despite this being untrue. Too specific? :)

Spot on about how the English media would react if they won.
 
I can see England in the game until about 60 mins and then running out of steam.
Look I'm not putting much stock in England winning. However running out of steam? When have England ever done that? We've been comprehensively beaten over the course of a match (usually thanks to us conceeding penalties) but I seriously cant remember the last time we got tired at the 60ish minuite and then got blown away.

If that's Ireland's game plan (and it won't be) the game will be a lot closer than most think.
 
I don't think McGrath has been as bad as you say, he's been good mostly for Leinster. Not amazing by any means, but definitely good. I certainly don't think Buckley has been noticeably better by any means.

Ed Byrne has been pushing him at Leinster but that shouldn't be a surprise, he's a really talented player who's been great this season and will probably go on to win international caps. It's easy to forget the fact that he missed two years because of injury. McGrath hasn't been a world beater by any stretch of the imagination over the last year but equally he was good against Wasps and excellent against the Scarlets. He was very effective coming off the bench in last years Six Nations as well and I'd be surprised if he doesn't get on the pitch in this year's tournament.

That said, Kilcoyne has been excellent for Munster and fully merits this, just as Ed Byrne 100% deserved his spot against Toulouse. I've no issue with this selection and I provably would have gone for the same if I was picking the team. That all said, it's less than two years ago that McGrath was widely considered one of the best props in the world, he's a test Lion and he's starting to show some of that form, I'd fully expect him to be comfortably in the first choice 23 by the World Cup.
And that is my point. As I said on form McGrath would he on team. But he's not in form. We might not agree on how poor he has dropped but do agree his form has dropped.
If he gets form back by RWC he will be in 23 but thsts the key. He needs to get form back
 
FFS!!!!!

mw2nsddxftd21.png


Why oh why.
Feel so bad for him.

(Yes I recycle reddit stuff sue me)
 
Which part have I said that is wrong so?

Are you saying he has outplayed Kilcoyne Buckley or Healy and even Byrne recently?

Yeah, he's better than Buckley and Byrne and contributes more positively to his side. Kilcoyne has been good but Jack's fundamentals are still better. I don't put an awful lot of stock in form, the cream rises to the top at international level regardless of it it more often than not and Jack has been better for Ireland than he's been for Leinster. Again, his dip is being massively overstated, he peaked in the season leading up to the Lions and dipped during the tour and for a few months after, he's since been as good as he has for most of his career, a good international prop.

Are you saying he was ruled out injured for Toulouse game?
No but what you said, "he wasn't up to the form of others", is wrong.
Cullen had this to say at the time "With Jack it was touch and go with him. He got through some minutes last week, but Ed Byrne has been going really well." I read it as he could have played but a fully fit Byrne who had trained all week was a better option, it's kind of how I see this anomoly in selection panning out too.

Are you saying Leinster fans in some sections are not saying he has dipped since Lions?

No, but this is a strange fallacy you use in your arguments that I tend to ignore.

Are you saying before Leinster played Wasps away there was high risk of not making QFs?

Lose or draw that match and we get an away QF, it's not a game to experiment.

On form Jack McGrath walks in to 23 if not 15 ahead of Kilcoyne.
On form of last few months McGrath is lucky to be ahead of Buckley IMO.
I think you're trying to justify Kilcoyne's selection by ******** on McGrath, you don't have to, the guy is playing well and deserves a shot. Saying you think Buckley and possibly even Byrne are ahead of McGrath really detracts from your point, because that's wrong.
 
I hate it when my two mums fight.
Kilcoyne has been picked because he's in excellent form, has been scrummaging more consistently, is better discipline-wise and he's very useful to bring on at 60 because of his carrying abilities. Would he make the same matchday 23 if it was the World Cup and not the 6N? You'd have to ask Schmidt. McGrath hasn't been bad at all this season, but he hasn't reached his world class heights in a while I would suggest. Not easy to do when you're competing with the likes of Healy for the 1 jersey. Still a guy I would have confidence in starting or from the bench if that's the decision Schmiddy came to at the World Cup. I think giving decent game time in WC year to guys who are at worst an injury away from the squad is a smart move though.
The Henshaw decision is one that I'm still considering a bit. Like I said yesterday he first emerged as a fullback and probably has it in him to be top class in that position. With that said, is now the right time to experiment with such an important position? I imagine Henshaw as a great defensive organiser could bring those skills to the back, but we do have specialist fullbacks at our disposal. My worry is not that he doesn't have the ability, it's that he comes in seriously undercooked. In Joe we trust though.
 
Yeah, he's better than Buckley and Byrne and contributes more positively to his side. Kilcoyne has been good but Jack's fundamentals are still better. I don't put an awful lot of stock in form, the cream rises to the top at international level regardless of it it more often than not and Jack has been better for Ireland than he's been for Leinster. Again, his dip is being massively overstated, he peaked in the season leading up to the Lions and dipped during the tour and for a few months after, he's since been as good as he has for most of his career, a good international prop.


No but what you said, "he wasn't up to the form of others", is wrong.
Cullen had this to say at the time "With Jack it was touch and go with him. He got through some minutes last week, but Ed Byrne has been going really well." I read it as he could have played but a fully fit Byrne who had trained all week was a better option, it's kind of how I see this anomoly in selection panning out too.



No, but this is a strange fallacy you use in your arguments that I tend to ignore.



Lose or draw that match and we get an away QF, it's not a game to experiment.


I think you're trying to justify Kilcoyne's selection by ******** on McGrath, you don't have to, the guy is playing well and deserves a shot. Saying you think Buckley and possibly even Byrne are ahead of McGrath really detracts from your point, because that's wrong.
No I'm just stating it is a kick to McGrath to get going now. You say the cream rises to top. And that is what needs to happen. I have said in form Jack is better player. But over last 12 months he hasn't been shadow of himself. That is fact.
He wasn't picked for Toulouse game due to this reason. He was nowhere near form. Be that because of injury or whatever it is what it is.
As Groundhog says. Would I worry if he was selected. No. Bit just he has slipped.
On Ed Byrne I rate him and think if Jack doesnt rediscover form he could have a battle for 17 shirt.
I'm not trying to justify Kilcoyne call as nobody has doubted it really to be fair. Everyone accepts he's the better option at the moment.
On Buckley and Byrne I said they are playing better at the moment which is a fair point I'd think. Buckley has been excellent for Connacht this year.
On Wasps game. Leinster were never loosing that. To be honest you may not admit it bit we both know it. Wasps are a shambles.

On Henshaw. It's been said he is picked for extra defensive protection in wider channels. Pick from that as you wish.
 
Jack McGrath has been playing with a long term injury that he only recently got surgery on and he is still regaining match fitness. That is a fact.

Any sentence ever uttered about form is completely subjective and therefore not a fact. It's well known 'form' doesn't factor into Schmidt's decision making or else the team would change with the wind and the likes of Buckley, Matt Healy, TO'H and insert Munster hooker here would have way more caps.



Something that is more interesting to me (apart from Olyy suggesting Curry is already streets ahead of VDF, SO'B and Leavy...) is when comparing the teams and discussion of Toner vs Itoje. I reckon Toner must be the best example of a so-called Moneyball player in rugby. He doesn't look the part of an elite secondrow like Itoje, Ryan or Etzebeth and if you asked even the most die hard Leinster fan they probably wouldn't pick him for the Lions but the current coach of the year almost certainly would. As amazing as Ryan is I think it's likely Schmidt would rather go without Ryan than Toner.

A huge amount of our gameplan is based around possession. While Toner is never really going to do anything amazing with that possession he is possibly the best secondrow out there for keeping the possession stat around the 60% mark. He pretty much guarantees clean lineout ball, even with throwers who aren't world beaters, he hits a huge amount of rucks, he's pretty much impossible to turnover because he can place the ball so far back, he gives you a strong maul to attack off and is excellent at defending mauls which helps keep his penalty count low. He's also got pretty decent hands allowing us to shift the point of attack from where the best jackler is. He's not super athletic and he looks awkward but there's very few players as effective as he is at their key roles.
 
Jack McGrath has been playing with a long term injury that he only recently got surgery on and he is still regaining match fitness. That is a fact.

Any sentence ever uttered about form is completely subjective and therefore not a fact. It's well known 'form' doesn't factor into Schmidt's decision making or else the team would change with the wind and the likes of Buckley, Matt Healy, TO'H and insert Munster hooker here would have way more caps.



Something that is more interesting to me (apart from Olyy suggesting Curry is already streets ahead of VDF, SO'B and Leavy...) is when comparing the teams and discussion of Toner vs Itoje. I reckon Toner must be the best example of a so-called Moneyball player in rugby. He doesn't look the part of an elite secondrow like Itoje, Ryan or Etzebeth and if you asked even the most die hard Leinster fan they probably wouldn't pick him for the Lions but the current coach of the year almost certainly would. As amazing as Ryan is I think it's likely Schmidt would rather go without Ryan than Toner.

A huge amount of our gameplan is based around possession. While Toner is never really going to do anything amazing with that possession he is possibly the best secondrow out there for keeping the possession stat around the 60% mark. He pretty much guarantees clean lineout ball, even with throwers who aren't world beaters, he hits a huge amount of rucks, he's pretty much impossible to turnover because he can place the ball so far back, he gives you a strong maul to attack off and is excellent at defending mauls which helps keep his penalty count low. He's also got pretty decent hands allowing us to shift the point of attack from where the best jackler is. He's not super athletic and he looks awkward but there's very few players as effective as he is at their key roles.
Very valid point on Toner.

The thing is Toner is in a bracket with Billy Holland as 2 of the best in the world in 1 department. Set Piece calling and knowledge. No I'm not saying Billy should be in squad but just Toner and himself are known like Paulie was for studying this department to a scary level of detail. That is why as you correctly say he is more vital than Ryan. Ryan is a beast at being a lock. Toner is a guy that does well as a lock but is a beast of calling and reading set pieces also in high pressure. A lanky man who maies use of himself in that department. Henderson, Dillane, Beirne can all do what Ryan does. Maybe not at same level but the role. They can all probably outplay Toner to in just ability but none are near in reading and execution of the set piece management on field which os vital to anyteam.

On 7 department I will say it. Curry is a superb player but Van Der Flier and Leavy are a step up and Seanie is a 6.5 who is probably on par as just a 7
 
I'm sorry but saying Billy Holland (who?) is the best in the world at anything has ruined all credibility you've built up over the years on here
Well he is a top set piece reader. Maybe not a player but has great brain. If you watched game vs Exeter his steal and reading of it showed that. If you had his brain in a lad like James Ryan it'd be scary.
That is what England I feel lack. A quality set piece operator.

Tigs as the posters in Dublin showed. We have inflicted 2 years of misery on ye. Only 798 more and we will be quits lol
 
I'm sorry but saying Billy Holland (who?) is the best in the world at anything has ruined all credibility you've built up over the years on here
Hey Sale thought Tony Buckley was a world class prop. So ye can't judge....
 

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