[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[ratsapprentice]

Fair enough. Underhill for me has the potential to be a top top 6 but I don't see enough of him in the loose ball in hand or running intelligent lines. He's got a lot of time to work on that aspect of his game though.

I saw him do it enough for the Ospreys in his time there to know he's capable of being decent at it, which is all he really needs to be in order to be a legit openside.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Only saw him a couple of time playing for Ospreys so I'll reserve judgement until I see him do that for Bath/England.

With Underhill and Simmonds skill sets you could almost now have a '6.5' in Underhill at 6 a '7.5' with Simmonds at 7 and it would be nicely balanced. Both have room to improve as well which is nice.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I think the real problem with balance in the English back row is that our entrenched 8 (and his back up albeit to a lesser extent) are not strong line-out options. This means that one of the flankers has to take responsibility for 3rd/tail jumper.

Without delving to much into the trend as to why you MUST have 3 specialist jumpers which does seem to be present in all top tier teams, this leaves us with a slight dilemma. Our 6 (or possibly 7) has to not only be a decent carrier, strong rucker (offensively more than defensively), a big engine and physical hitter, but they also have to be a viable lineout option. Unfortunately, based on most obvious examples, the taller, less dense lineout operators tend to lack a bit in the carrying, rucking and general dynamism aspect, whereas the smaller, more powerful operators tend to to be non-entities in the lineout.

Due to the above I am intrigued to see what the two 6 imports that become available in the summer have to offer in Brad Shields and Mike Rhodes, they seem to be pretty close to complete. Alternatively, we unearth Eben Etzebeth's english qualified twin, and stick him on the blindside.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

6. Underhill 7. Curry, B 8. Vunipola seems very well balanced to me. In Underhill you have a seriously destructive defender, top work rate as well as being no slouch at the breakdown, in Curry you have a real traditional 7, great at the breakdown, great work rate and also a very good link man with some very soft hands and good pace and the Binny at 8 to more than make up for any ball carrying frailties you get from the other 2. Simmonds on the bench to come on for any of the 3 at 50 minutes and find some holes in a tired defence.

Only down side is you are lacking a real 3rd lineout option but both Underhill and Curry can go up so it's not a disaster. If we do come up against a team that's disrupting our lineout, no worries, shift Itoje or Lawes into 6 for that game.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

6. Underhill 7. Curry, B 8. Vunipola seems very well balanced to me. In Underhill you have a seriously destructive defender, top work rate as well as being no slouch at the breakdown, in Curry you have a real traditional 7, great at the breakdown, great work rate and also a very good link man with some very soft hands and good pace and the Binny at 8 to more than make up for any ball carrying frailties you get from the other 2. Simmonds on the bench to come on for any of the 3 at 50 minutes and find some holes in a tired defence.

Only down side is you are lacking a real 3rd lineout option but both Underhill and Curry can go up so it's not a disaster. If we do come up against a team that's disrupting our lineout, no worries, shift Itoje or Lawes into 6 for that game.

Post 2019 RWC this is surely on the cards. Robshaw and Haskell will pack in International Rugby and will no longer be a factor (I think Robshaw will that is). That's two free squad spaces to be taken.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The other great thing about Fearns is he knocked out Gavin Henson.

 

[Scotty]

I just think against france england need to chance it without robshaw. Underhill Simmonds Hughes. He has been in almost every game under EJ and he brings alot but i just dont want him there so we can see how it effects our workrate because underhill big dominant hits and gets stuck in, simmonds 23 tackles last time he played for england and both are better going forward. If we insist on not getting rid of hartlet then get rid of robshaw. Not out of the squad but out of the 23.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Underhill is fine as a tail jumper.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

It is.

If Robshaw was faster he'd be a great 7.
If he was more physical he'd be a great 6.

As it is, he's a great player, but doesn't really fit either of the traditional flanker roles.

Underhill could play either... at the moment, he's more a 6 than 7, but if he was given the responsibility to be a bit more of a link player for club or country, I think he'd be a 7 comfortably.

I think Underhill is a more talented but not as tough version of Peter O'Mahoney. PO'M could do a job at 7 and was seen as one earlier in his career due to his ruck work being the most impressive part of his game but once he filled out and could take the toll of tackling in tight he has always been more suited to 6, what you lose at the lineout with Underhill you gain in the tackle.

I think England's backrow is totally reliant on Vunipola to be "world class", he's England's most important player and would create a very balanced backrow with Robshaw and Underhill without a "specialist" 7. England seem to have an obsession with finding another Neil Back but you really don't need it, I've seen loads of commentary stating that you need a backrow with a clear 6, 7 and 8 "like" Ireland when in reality we don't have that, Leavy is more of a 7 than a 6 but is certainly no Back and POM is not a vintage 6 either. The two of them are a lot more dynamic than Lawes which is where England are really struggling. Murray Kinsella has his own system for analysing the work a player does at the ruck. (Here's the most thorough example http://www.the42.ie/ireland-ruck-analysis-south-africa-first-test-2016-2824810-Jun2016/) He ranks a players contribution in offensive rucks from best to worst as Effective, Guard, Present and Ineffective. Ineffective means that their contribution at the ruck wasn't enough to stop the opposition stealing the ball and present is basically ruck inspecting. Purely from an eye test I would guess that Lawes isn't hitting the number of rucks you want from a 6, especially as a 1st or 2nd arrival, with no "specialist 7" that means you'll struggle. (Jordi Murphy always tops the first arrivals on these lists and made up Iain Henderson and CJ Stander not getting what you want from a 6 on the South African tour) Also from an eye test I'd imagine that Lawes is either getting Effective marks or Present or Ineffective, I don't think he's the most intelligent ruck player and this is costing England because they lack a player getting consistent Guards at 6 as a 1st or 2nd arrival. Robshaw can't really do it on his own while a carrier is needed for the bigger challenges in international rugby meaning Vunipola or Hughes are definitely needed. I think Lawes is a fantastic rugby player just not a fantastic backrow. Underhill and Robshaw on the flanks, either position depending on how they fit Jones' formation best, is what would best serve England in my opinion. I think the "Jonesisms" like his "finishers" and "back 5" in the scrum are looking more and more like quack science that people bought because he has a fantastically strong squad of players who are winning games, his bench hasn't exactly been firing lately and three locks cost him big in his two biggest challenges in the past 12 months, the best rugby his team has played has been with three backrowers.

 

[Pom in Exile]

What is the description of what makes a no.6?(and dont say blindside flanker lol) We talk so much about 7. And just put robshaw or underhill at 6. But whats makes a good 6 on paper different to a 7.

Richard Hill.

 

[Mumbles119]

6 = Enforcer
7 = Fetcher
8 = Crasher

A traditional difference between 6 & 7 is the distance and area they play in. The Fetcher 7 goes further afield, first to the wider breakdowns, quickest in the face of the opposition 10. The Enforcer 6 stays close to present breakdown, offering self as carrier, brutal cleaner, and crucial scrag defence are ins the breakdown fringes, and all the clear up work too.
Another traditional difference is the link play a 7 was expected to provide to move or link play with the backs. Whereas a 6 creates the quick ball through the brutal work they do at the breakdown allowing clean recycling.

But nowadays this is all muddled, depending on selected players strengths, or team tactics sharing these roles in a total rugby approach.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The Scottish back row that walloped us was:

Watson 1.83m, 102 kg

Barclay 1.9m, 102 kg

Wilson 1.91m, 105 kg

The Welsh flankers who also did a number on us were:

Shingler 1.97m, 105 kg

Navidi 1.85m, 95 kg

Tipuric and Warburton are also 102 and 103 kg respectively.

O'Mahony and O'Brien are a bit heavier at 107 and 108 kg. But our young guns of Underhill, Currys, Simmonds, Mercer etc are all going to be there or thereabouts physically and all have USPs, whether its Underhill's hitting, Simmonds pace or Currys over the ball. For me, flankers are the key to the breakdown and don't need to be monsters. I'll come back to no8's later.

So why have we been suffering at the breakdown?

• Coaching / tactics. McCaw would have looked rubbish if Hansen had told him not to contest the breakdown and just keep shape in the defensive line. Eddie has to take some criticism here.
  
  
  
  
• Skill sets. The breakdown has been a problem for us for years, way back beyond the current 3 lock experiment, which needs abandoning. Robshaw with 60+ caps has been a constant across much of that. Not denigrating the guy, but if you're serious about sorting out the breakdown in the medium term he's not part of the answer. The likes of Curries and Underhill may be; of course they're all raw at international level. Stick or twist ahead of the RWC?
  
  
  
• Aggression. The difference Underhill made against Sco was obvious. Nothing special, he just consistently hits hard in contact. Same reason why O'Brien is so loved by the Irish, he goes into every contact with or without ball as if it's his last. Sorry to snipe at Robshaw again, but while his stats are great, he's seldom hard hitting and I'd guess that's one of the key reasons why he spent last summer in Arg while SOB was starring in NZ.
  

Teams and units within them are about balance, which brings me to no8. I think we need to get over our Binny obsession. Look at the other great 8s of this era – Parisse, Read, Heaslip, Faletau – all around 110 – 115 kg and much more rounded players – line out options, quicker, more skilful. Binny is 130 kg and unquestionably the best carrier of the lot, possibly the best in any position in the world, and while he's not a one trick pony, his all round contribution is not on a par with the others. Binny has been crucial to England because of the lack of other carriers and in that respect he has been doing the work of several men. But for all the good he brings, he also brings an inherent imbalance. And all this is before you look at his recent injury record, which is hopefully nothing more serious than a run of bad luck. Binny may currently be our best option when he's fit, but he's not a panacea to all our ills, indeed, his very uniqueness and our over reliance on his carrying is part of the problem.

Good luck Eddie. There are fundamental issues to resolve, but we can't change everything at once and for France I'd go Underhill, Robshaw and Hughes.


All stats courtesy of Wikipedia…..

 

[Nudger]

I'm really not sure. A lot of things I dismissed as quirky during the honeymoon period with Jones are now starting to look very doubtful. Issues like these are so beyond opinion- I don't think anyone on these forums thinks that it's logical to have unblooded (under Jones) 3rd and 4th choice players in key positions like hooker and scrumhalf- that it's just baffling.

The scales aren't quite falling from my eyes, but I am worried.

In fairness both Taylor and dickie have been injured a lot

 

[BenJeffrey]

Teams and units within them are about balance, which brings me to no8. I think we need to get over our Binny obsession. Look at the other great 8s of this era – Parisse, Read, Heaslip, Faletau – all around 110 – 115 kg and much more rounded players – line out options, quicker, more skilful. Binny is 130 kg and unquestionably the best carrier of the lot, possibly the best in any position in the world, and while he's not a one trick pony, his all round contribution is not on a par with the others. Binny has been crucial to England because of the lack of other carriers and in that respect he has been doing the work of several men. But for all the good he brings, he also brings an inherent imbalance. And all this is before you look at his recent injury record, which is hopefully nothing more serious than a run of bad luck. Binny may currently be our best option when he's fit, but he's not a panacea to all our ills, indeed, his very uniqueness and our over reliance on his carrying is part of the problem.

This. What Billy brings is undoubted, he's a physical monster and the yardage he makes is almost guaranteed every game. But for him to work in a balanced back row requires to other players that will do what he doesn't. For me, Underhill, Simmonds and Billy as a backrow has this tenacious and physical balance that we really need right now. It also brings Mercer into the question, with time and having spent a lot of time at Bath with Faletau, he could add a considerable amount in other areas to our backrow system. Constantly improving and is probably going to fill out even more given his age.

 

[curtbob7]

Not a chance is Navidi only 95KG hahahaha

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Not a chance is Navidi only 95KG hahahaha

Especially if Mercer's 105...

 

[curtbob7]

Especially if Mercer's 105...

Cardiff Blues have Navidi as 105KG but I think hes bulked up even more with regular Wales caps.

Thing about the Scottish flankers was they had the aid of a PRO14 referee and were decent at the breakdown whereas we had power, effort and a lock with no nowse on the floor.

 

[Which Tyler]

Teams and units within them are about balance, which brings me to no8. I think we need to get over our Binny obsession. Look at the other great 8s of this era – Parisse, Read, Heaslip, Faletau – all around 110 – 115 kg and much more rounded players

In terms of stat collection - already done for you:
https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...-england-04-02-2018.40642/page-16#post-887406

Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.15)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)

Billy Vunipola: 188cm; 130kg (BMI: 36.78)
Nathan Hughes: 196cm; 125kg (BMI: 32.54)
Ben Morgan: 191cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.8)
Thomas Waldron: 185cm; 114kg (BMI: 33.31)

The only reason people seem to think that 110kg is too light for a #8 is Billy Vunipola; who is an absolute physical freak. There is no-one in world rugby even close to him in terms of physical stats without playing front row.
What you're used to skews your perception of "normal" - I have big dogs; normal sized dogs look tiny; I have small cats; normal sized cats look huge. England have a huge #8; all other international #8s look too small in comparison. However, looking at the list of top international #8s, someone like Mercer really isn't giving up much already.
I know, I know, people say that there's absolutely no way Mercer can be 105 kg - because of their perception bias (or they're thinking of him a year ago). Stand him next to Billy; and he's lightweight. Stand him next to Faletau; and he's a little smaller; but there's really not much in it; mostly upper legs- lower torso.

ETA: Different stat.s available for Zach.
RFU = 103kg
ESPN = 104kg
Bath = 105kg
Wiki = 105kg
RugbyProfiles = 108kg

For those interested; Charlie Morgan one of his usual excellent write-ups of Zach a couple of weeks ago: http://subscriber.telegraph.co.uk/r...s-want-see-zach-mercer-back-premiership-duty/

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

OT a bit has Polledri been captured by Italy yet?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

As far as I'm aware he has been