[2017 Super Rugby] The FINAL: Lions vs. Crusaders (05/08/2017)

[Larksea]

bizarre local ref selection aside which shouldn't happen in finals or at least semi's and finals.

as far as I know the an overseas away team has only won the super rugby final once in the competitions history out of something like 18 finals?

I think its fair to say that the crusaders have been by far the best team this year. blemish being maybe that they were at their best before the lions series and haven't quite shown they are back up to speed yet.

But the lions have a massive advantage playing at home while the Crusaders have to travel. it more than evens things up. Seeing how badly the Hurricanes faded when I think all things equal they are a better side than the Lions. Probably have to say the Lions are clear favorites.

 

[OneBlackEye]

On this forum perhaps, but on social media, and news articles, the NZ'ers are being a bit OTT...

This is why this forum is pretty much unreadable now.

Anyone can go find an online article and/or social media comment about anything, then post it and then stereotype an entire country or team fan base with it. Thats not a great way to stimulate conversation with people that dont actually fit that stereotype.

It should be a rule here that rather than making blanket statements about millions of people and expecting posters here have to either defend it or grin and bare it you should actually have to quote a poster or article and disagree with it specifically. Although I guess now Im just a kiwi disagreeing with how this forum is being refereed so maybe that stereotype is true.

 

[saulan]

bizarre local ref selection aside which shouldn't happen in finals or at least semi's and finals.

Why is this such a factor this season, when it was not really mentioned in last year's final with a New Zealand ref? If it's because people believe that Peyper is biased, that is ridiculous. He makes errors, but not from a bias. Many Saffers felt he was very weak when enforcing offside with the Chiefs against the Stormers in the quarters, and from what I read, Saffers felt that Peyper was hard on the Lions first half (SA rugby pages) and then on here there are two specific calls that people feel were questionable to Lions, one was a try which was a try when people watch replays anyway, and the other was the yellow card, which many people have discussed and feel it was warranted in the position and the effect it had on slowing things down. Lions could also feel aggrieved about one of the Hurricanes tries for offsides in the first half. So as I said, he makes errors, but it isn't a bias.

For reference, I went through last year's final thread, here are all the comments on the referee:

The Hurricanes have always been the bridesmaid, therefore they could be again.
Barrett will be key
Conditions will be a factor
The Ref will be a factor

Glen Jackson has been appointed the referee for the final.

I have no problem whatsoever with him. And one area where he's better than most referees are at the scrums. With the weather seemingly bad, the Lions superior scrum, I can see this match turn out into a scrum fest...

Also why's everyone ranting on about the referee constantly on these forums, Jackson's a top ref and will call it how he sees it on the day. Hurricanes 22-13 Lions sadly

Very impressed by refereeing so far if they call this one back. A shame though given the quality of the move. Also liked early offside call. Lions need to hang in there and hope the wind dies (which some forecasts were predicting). Wind favouring Hurricanes this half?

Thought the ref was OK, but, for me, may have missed a couple of calls that went against the Lions. Pretty sure a forward pass before the games first pen, and when the Lions did get a ramble near the Canes 22, I thought Savea had hands in a ruck for am awful long time, but the call went his way for player holding on. NO replays to confirm either.

Those are all the comments on the ref in that 8 page thread. I feel that there are already more comments on the ref in this thread then there were in that whole thread.

As a South African, this does make one feel why is it okay if it happens in New Zealand, but not in South Africa? If he has been deemed the best referee on a performance review basis, then have him ref it. In the past we always wanted the best refs reffing the big matches, now we have it and we have complaints. In the end, we all have inherent biases, I would rather trust SANZAR's ruling on who has been performing well as a ref than to trust our skewed views based on loyalties.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Those are all the comments on the ref in that 8 page thread. I feel that there are already more comments on the ref in this thread then there were in that whole thread.

As a South African, this does make one feel why is it okay if it happens in New Zealand, but not in South Africa?

But a majority of comments about the ref in this thread have been from South Africans...
Personally I would prefer Angus Gardiner be reffing, but that's purely because I believe he is a better ref. He seems a bit more onto it with his refereeing, but that's just my opinion. I'm happy for the best ref to appointed regardless of where they're from. I don't think that's the case here, but clearly SANZAAR do, so I'm fine with it.

 

[Hydraulxx]

This is why this forum is pretty much unreadable now.

Anyone can go find an online article and/or social media comment about anything, then post it and then stereotype an entire country or team fan base with it. Thats not a great way to stimulate conversation with people that dont actually fit that stereotype.

It should be a rule here that rather than making blanket statements about millions of people and expecting posters here have to either defend it or grin and bare it you should actually have to quote a poster or article and disagree with it specifically. Although I guess now Im just a kiwi disagreeing with how this forum is being refereed so maybe that stereotype is true.

100% agree, there is a guy posting in the Lions vs Hurricanes thread pretty much attacking the morals and ethics of all South Africans... Aren't there any admins that monitor what get's posted and not just who double/triple posts?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Lions unchanged for the final.

Team added to the OP.

 

[ncurd]

The problem if the referee pool comes from the various nations involved in the competition not from international body as a whole. So you don't have access to NH referees but in equal measure we don't have access the SH ones in the Champions Cup.

Now the problem comes to size the Champions Cup has 6 nations of which 4 are producing international quality referees so the room for scope and you can find a neutral referee whereas Super Rugby has 5 nations of which only two have international class referees with a vast amount of experience (over 5 games).

So the problem then comes of how do you manage the international referees, they have accept being away from for extended amounts of times during international windows but do you expand that to multi-demostic competitions? what do you do about the Pro-14? Do England/France suddenly lose their best refs at the tail end of that competetion rather than use them in their own?



Until Japan/Argentina start producing decent refs and Australia international referees get more xperience your not going to be a neutral ref in a SA v NZ final for some time.

 

[mania]

good luck saders, lions and most of all peyper
getting sick of the attacks on peyper and the fact he isnt neutral
i dont give a sht. imo the best ref has been appointed. if it hadnt been peyper then i wouldve wanted gardner. they are both fair refs who understand the spirit of the game and have a lot of dignity and honesty to the way they ref.

 

[Larksea]

Why is this such a factor this season

its always a factor, I've always said the comp needs neutral refs for credibility. I think angus gardner is a very good ref and would seem the natural selection for the final.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Come on Crusaders!

Probably not really much point *****ing about the ref appointment until after the match. I don't think Peyper had a great semifinal but I don't think that was anything to do with bias. I much prefer a good ref to an 'neutral' ref.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Reffing is a bit like learning to play centre. You spend years learning the position and tend to be a bit average, making mistakes etc, then you get a handle on it for the last few years of your playing career and then you're done.
It's a bugger of a job.
Earlier in the thread I posted...

"The Hurricanes have always been the bridesmaid, therefore they could be again.
Barrett will be key
Conditions will be a factor
The Ref will be a factor"

The ref is always a factor.
I didn't say anything about a certain ref, or a certain country's ref.
I don't care about that nonsense.
My favourite ref is still Nigel Owen. He's got a sense of humour. I think that helps.
What I was saying is that every team has to play to what that particular ref is likely to be concerned about and we all know that some are scrum pedants, some are breakdown pedants, others are high tackle pedants and others are discarding their pedantry and letting the game flow.
Teams have to play the ref, in the sense that they have to be aware of what the ref is really hot on and try their best not to contravene the laws in that area, perhaps more than others.
The ref is always a factor.
Most of all I would like players to shut up and stop trying to ref the game themselves. That nonsense winds me up and some of the key offenders are the Kiwi halfbacks.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Lions vs Crusaders in 2017 can only be assessed by the common opponents they faced;

- Played 9 games against common opponents before playoffs:

- Points for Crusaders 383
- Points for Lions 385
+2 point advantage to the Lions

- Points against Crusaders 163
- Points against Lions 143
+ 20 point advantage to the Lions

A 22 point spread across 9 games means there is nothing in it. Less than random penalty this way or that. Lions' home advantage will count for more than that spread. I am nervous about the referee. I just hope the pressure being put on him beforehand doesn't get to him. It certainly is getting to me.

Crusaders have been well able to shut teams out, particularly during the latter half of the season. They are just as apt to pounce on any mistake. Lions need to be way wayyyy more accurate and pragmatic than they were against the Hurricanes in the opening 40 minutes. The Lions have made a habit of scoring their tries and winning points in the last 20 though. I think this one is going to be no different.

 

[Nubiwan]

3pm kick off in jo'burg is 2am in NZ? That correct? Who organized that? If you are interested in promoting your product, and securing advertising dollars, then surely best to maximize viewing in both countries. A morning, noon or 8pm start would make more sense to me, but then, my job is not to promote Super Rugby, is it?

Least I can watch it with a bit of breakfast and a cup of tea...... I'll have to give her a little shove to go make it mind.....

 

[TRF_heineken]

3pm kick off in jo'burg is 2am in NZ? That correct? Who organized that? If you are interested in promoting your product, and securing advertising dollars, then surely best to maximize viewing in both countries. A morning, noon or 8pm start would make more sense to me, but then, my job is not to promote Super Rugby, is it?

Least I can watch it with a bit of breakfast and a cup of tea...... I'll have to give her a little shove to go make it mind.....

Well the time zones are never in either country's favour. 3pm is the earliest time games are played in the republic, and the latest is 19:30. So it's a toss up between staying up late, or waking up early...

 

[Penne Rara]

Well the time zones are never in either country's favour. 3pm is the earliest time games are played in the republic, and the latest is 19:30. So it's a toss up between staying up late, or waking up early...

He's making a good point though. The two biggest markets as concerns broadcasting rights are SA and NZ (for that match). Playing at 8 PM Joburg time would have made much more sense, as it is more likely that people will be waking up early (7 AM New-Zealand time) than losing a night's sleep over a rugby match.
As a french student (that is someone who doesn't work on Saturdays), I was ready to watch a streamed match at 5 AM every Saturday morning during the early stages of Super Rugby. 7 AM is more than a correct schedule if you're a big fan.

 

[TRF_heineken]

He's making a good point though. The two biggest markets as concerns broadcasting rights are SA and NZ (for that match). Playing at 8 PM Joburg time would have made much more sense, as it is more likely that people will be waking up early (7 AM New-Zealand time) than losing a night's sleep over a rugby match.
As a french student (that is someone who doesn't work on Saturdays), I was ready to watch a streamed match at 5 AM every Saturday morning during the early stages of Super Rugby. 7 AM is more than a correct schedule if you're a big fan.

Perhaps. But the issue is also that SARU's deal with Supersport regarding broadcasting also has to be considered. Because of the Currie Cup also going on, and those fixtures already locked in long before the playoffs started, they had to make due with the times available.

The Lions even asked the Blue Bulls Rugby union, if they'd be interested into switching their home game against the Lions on Saturday at Loftus at 19:00 to an away game as a warm-up to the final, but due to the time constraints the BBRU declined as it would have been a PR nightmare, and tickets were already sold at Loftus.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

As a kiwi I'm much happier with a 2.00am start. I find staying up much easier than getting up, especially on weekends.
I'm a night owl though so am probably in the minority...

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Nice stats stormer. Of those 9 games, any idea how many were home/away for each? (I could check but maybe you have the stats at hand).

Crusaders have been well able to shut teams out, particularly during the latter half of the season. They are just as apt to pounce on any mistake. Lions need to be way wayyyy more accurate and pragmatic than they were against the Hurricanes in the opening 40 minutes. The Lions have made a habit of scoring their tries and winning points in the last 20 though. I think this one is going to be no different.

I agree with the analysis but (oddly) disagree with the conclusion. I think this game will be different.

The lions tend to have "average" 1Hs and then come back strong in the 2H. I have a feeling that instead of reinforcing their strengths, for this game, they should minimize their weakness instead.
They shouldn't focus so much on scoring points, those will come, but alternatively be very careful about not giving away points, particularly in the first half.

Imo, the crusaders ability to shut down the game once they are ahead is stronger and counters nicely the lions ability to make a come back. The key for the lions is not give away points due to silly mistakes in the 1H (all game, but you get the gist). I don't see the lions making a comeback against the crusaders. I really don't.

I am not sure the Lions will change their style tho, so i guess i agree with stormer that it will boil down to how accurate their 1H performance is. And of course, Jantjies. Good lord he is important for this game.

How can i put it differently? The lions at their best will beat the crusaders at theirs (controversial, i know), but the an average performance from the lions will lose against an average performance from the crusaders.

As a side note, JM Hernandez said he favours the Crusaders for this game.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Largest crowd in Super Rugby history.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/record-crowd-set-for-final/

That kind of makes my head hurt given the Lions weren't even in the competion a few years back.

 

[Nubiwan]

As a kiwi I'm much happier with a 2.00am start. I find staying up much easier than getting up, especially on weekends.
I'm a night owl though so am probably in the minority...

Yeah 2 AM is not all that bad. You can get a bit oiled up before the match starts too. Just reckon others might not be as arsed to stay up. Still think even a noon local start would perhaps keep a few pubs and bars busy. Depends what sort of viewing you have for this type of thing in the end. Not an option as Stormer has hinted.