[2017 Rugby Championship] Round 2: New Zealand v Australia (26/08/2017)

[galumay]

Larksea, spot on about Folau's try, I was watching with a mate, and at the time I said, "thats a 14 point try, Folau misses that intercept and the ABs are in for all money."

I think it was just one of those games - the Wobblies had all the luck, how often have you seen a scrum dominated like that, the ball come out and bounce off the 9's knee into his hands!

Another thing I noted at the time that i missed saying in my earlier post, there was a very noticeable improvement in the support play from the Wallabies, all too often in recent times when someone does make a break there is no one running in support, this means all too often line breaks turned into turnovers.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Was interesting the trys the Aussies scored. I think I need to watch them again still, I know the AB's will analyze it till Feijoa's are back in season its unlike the AB defense to let so many in and there was a theme to them.

Malakai Feijoa has signed overseas mate, he's long gone

 

[InsaneAsylum]

Larksea, spot on about Folau's try, I was watching with a mate, and at the time I said, "thats a 14 point try, Folau misses that intercept and the ABs are in for all money."

I think it was just one of those games - the Wobblies had all the luck, how often have you seen a scrum dominated like that, the ball come out and bounce off the 9's knee into his hands!

Another thing I noted at the time that i missed saying in my earlier post, there was a very noticeable improvement in the support play from the Wallabies, all too often in recent times when someone does make a break there is no one running in support, this means all too often line breaks turned into turnovers.

The Wallabies have been notoriously weak on their support play over the last few years and NZ have been good. it's been a key difference in the 2 teams, NZ secure the ball at ruck time and have multiple players available around the ball carrier ready to receive offloads. we definitely improved on saturday night, hopefully it's not a one off performance

 

[Nubiwan]

Found myself watching the game (just tonight) and willing the Wallabies to hang on. I always favour the underdog.

I think I am perhaps the only person in world rugby who cannot stand Nigel Owen. I think hes a "look at me, and how I know everything" sort of ref. Game was stop start all over from his point of view. How many TMOs do we need in rugby - I ask? Ridiculous! How does he award a try that the TMO clearly had trouble awarding? Surely he had to see a grounding to award it.

Yeah it was exciting, but mainly because it became a matter of how long till the All Black s get their winning points. 78th minute as it turned out. Still, they totally dominated possession, territory and scrum, and it was simply a matter of time. A spirited Wallaby effort nonetheless. Unbelievable how crap Foley's kicking was. Criminal.

Couple of pivotal non-decisions went against the wallabies, I thought.

First - The intercept by Genia (35:21) near the goal line defending just before half time. McKenzie clearly tackles him and does not release him. Take a look at Curtly Beale who sees the same thing, and thinks the ref gives the Oz a pen. Instead "look at me" has penalized Genia (not given an opportunity to release), for holding on. McKenzie should have been penalized by Mr Know it All, and Wallabies clear and get their own line out near half way. Instead, All Blacks enjoy 5 minutes of pressure on the Oz 5 metre line, and finally cross the line. In the context of the final score, it was a big moment.

Not sure on the ruling of a tackler and being held, but Ben Smith's 5 meter crawl on his own 22 (47:08) looked a little like playing the ball while held to me. If not that then playing the ball off his feet. I'll wait on some ref poster to clear the air on that, but a case for Smith being held, if not playing off his feet, for me. It is little moments like that, which can halt the flow of one team, and set them back in points or territory. Key moments where, if you don't get the decisions, you feel its all going against you, ad writing is on the wall. Which is how it panned out. There was a similar "player held on the ground" situation with Beale tackling an AB later on in the half. Ref ignored that too. More graffiti.

The most pivotal decision of the night was the OZ selectors being believing Bernard Foley is an international standard goal kicker. If the ABS played the BI Lions tonight, they'd have lost fair and square, down to goal kicking. To be fair, most provincial teams have more consistent kicking.

As a neutral - sort of - I just got the feeling Nigel was playing to the crowd a bit at times. Particularly when OZ stormed off to a 17 point lead.

New Zealand were all over them in terms of the contest. Oz played some bold defence, but the clearly better side won in what turned out to be a scrap. The scoreline made it exciting, but these two sides are miles apart in reality.

Late Edit: My initial post was a bit knee jerk right after watching. Bit ticked off my underdogs lost It was a superb game, and hats off to the Oz for hanging in there. Almost nicking it. Still don't like Nigel "look at me", all the same. Man of the match for me was that OZ number 8. Forgot his name now. One of their locks had a stormer too, but a lot of good displays out there on both sides. Oz #8 was massive.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Another was a similar miss by Savea but he didn't have the same excuse Cane had. He was the first defender and left a big whole for Genia to exploit

I actually thought Tu'ungafasi was more to blame here, he was the guy who should've had that channel, but he was lazy in getting up and into position which created the hole.
And then again with the last Aussie try under the sticks, he was the defender who made that big gap because of his lack of urgency. I've felt for a while that he is well over-rated by the ABs coaches, not sure why they persist with him. He was poor on Saturday. I hope they come to their senses and promote Laulala ahead of him to the bench when Franks comes back.

 

[Nubiwan]

I actually thought Tu'ungafasi was more to blame here, he was the guy who should've had that channel, but he was lazy in getting up and into position which created the hole.
And then again with the last Aussie try under the sticks, he was the defender who made that big gap because of his lack of urgency. I've felt for a while that he is well over-rated by the ABs coaches, not sure why they persist with him. He was poor on Saturday. I hope they come to their senses and promote Laulala ahead of him to the bench when Franks comes back.

Have to watch it again, but thought Reid over committed for Beales try under the sticks, leaving couple of players with the drawers down.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

i cant believe how well beale played. motm imo
he was amazing. made sbw look like a rookie. completely and absolutely owned him.
genia is just pure class. no nonsense, no bs, no useless chatter just all business...and tries
mcmahon, wow what a loss to aus !! a bit rank that cheika is only now saying they want to keep him. mcmahons been on the cusp for a couple years

us Aussies were also surprised at how well Beale played. We know he's good with ball in hand, but we've always criticised his defence and his running sideways. A lot of us had our reservations about Cheika rushing him back into the side, but after seeing the game on Saturday, I'm eating my words - he had a blinder

 

[Red Enigma]

Late joining in the conversation but have read through the forum and have a few of comments to make;

(1) Being in QLD I had Aussie commentators on Foxtel to cope with. When Folau ran away for his try the commentators were quick to point out that once he had the ball it was never in doubt. Seems they didn't notice that BB gave him 10 metres start and damn near caught him even though his obvious purpose was to keep Folau away from the posts.

(2) Love the way Perenara passes and then supports, has done it all season and must be way up there in the try-assist + tries scored count. A very dangerous halfback and not at all predictable. Has finally got his pass as good as Aaron's and his partnership with BB, already great, will soon become legendary.

(3) I started the topic of the place of RU in Aussie, but forgot to mention the strong role played by the elite colleges and universities in providing a base for the sport. As with NZ where the elite colleges and universities focus on RU only, over here they remain a major influence. Traditionally that was far more important, with brains being on a par with brawn. Nowadays, with rugby players being far bigger, stronger, faster than ever, brawn has won out and the opportunities for guys like Conrad Smith to excel are becoming fewer and fewer. I hope this helps explain the problem the ARU have to handle - the mix and match between players of vastly different backgrounds who only get into the melting pot at high levels, whereas the vast bulk of Kiwis mix and match from the day they start playing rugby. In Melbourne I spent Saturdays attending rugby in Frankston, along with Kiwis who made up most playing numbers and most of the crowd. A far cry from watching rugby on the other side of town!

(4) Yep, this IS the last comment! Tell me, when one team is hell bent on having a flat back-line and rush defence, why doesn't the opposition set a deep back-line and trust the foot skills of their players? With guys like BB, who have such fast acceleration it is not so important, but most players need to be going at pace when they get the ball and so many AB backs seldom get to use the skills Kiwis excel at - footwork, body language, slick passing. RU is becoming a bit like RL with both teams lining up flat and backs going through the motions. On Saturday, SBW made it almost impossible to pass to him, he was so flat Aaron had to fire the ball like a bullet to prevent a forward pass and that led to a heap of errors. I'm not advocating one attack format over another, but suggest a good option would be to play deep by default and shallow for planned moves.

Just fodder for thought.

 

[smartcooky]

Folau's try was a mix of luck and individual brilliance. I find it hard to blame McKenzie, it looked like a set play, the overlap was on and at the point McKenzie was passing, Folau was actually well back, he just anticipated it perfectly. Could have happened to anyone. And if Folau missed it most likely would have been a try at the other end. AB's had a 2 man overlap and with folau up they had no one at the back..

Yup. It whats knows as a "14 point try". If McKenzie picks up Folau a fraction of a second earlier, he holds the pass for a tick before releasing and Ben Smith is under the posts unopposed.

 

[The Jones Boy]

It was a humdinger of a game.
The RC is such a good competition when all the teams give it everything.
I'm so keen to see how the Bokke get on in their oceania matches.

 

[mania]

(4) ...Tell me, when one team is hell bent on having a flat back-line and rush defence, why doesn't the opposition set a deep back-line and trust the foot skills of their players?

i personally have never been a fan of the deep backline. imo it keeps you too far away from all the action. at least if something goes wrong during a flat backline then everyone's closer to the ball.
to counter a flat d line you chip/grubber it in behind them or draw and skip pass. make them doubt their defensive patterns .

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Found myself watching the game (just tonight) and willing the Wallabies to hang on. I always favour the underdog.

I think I am perhaps the only person in world rugby who cannot stand Nigel Owen. I think hes a "look at me, and how I know everything" sort of ref. Game was stop start all over from his point of view. How many TMOs do we need in rugby - I ask? Ridiculous! How does he award a try that the TMO clearly had trouble awarding? Surely he had to see a grounding to award it.

Yeah it was exciting, but mainly because it became a matter of how long till the All Black s get their winning points. 78th minute as it turned out. Still, they totally dominated possession, territory and scrum, and it was simply a matter of time. A spirited Wallaby effort nonetheless. Unbelievable how crap Foley's kicking was. Criminal.

Couple of pivotal non-decisions went against the wallabies, I thought.

First - The intercept by Genia (35:21) near the goal line defending just before half time. McKenzie clearly tackles him and does not release him. Take a look at Curtly Beale who sees the same thing, and thinks the ref gives the Oz a pen. Instead "look at me" has penalized Genia (not given an opportunity to release), for holding on. McKenzie should have been penalized by Mr Know it All, and Wallabies clear and get their own line out near half way. Instead, All Blacks enjoy 5 minutes of pressure on the Oz 5 metre line, and finally cross the line. In the context of the final score, it was a big moment.

Not sure on the ruling of a tackler and being held, but Ben Smith's 5 meter crawl on his own 22 (47:08) looked a little like playing the ball while held to me. If not that then playing the ball off his feet. I'll wait on some ref poster to clear the air on that, but a case for Smith being held, if not playing off his feet, for me. It is little moments like that, which can halt the flow of one team, and set them back in points or territory. Key moments where, if you don't get the decisions, you feel its all going against you, ad writing is on the wall. Which is how it panned out. There was a similar "player held on the ground" situation with Beale tackling an AB later on in the half. Ref ignored that too. More graffiti.

The most pivotal decision of the night was the OZ selectors being believing Bernard Foley is an international standard goal kicker. If the ABS played the BI Lions tonight, they'd have lost fair and square, down to goal kicking. To be fair, most provincial teams have more consistent kicking.

As a neutral - sort of - I just got the feeling Nigel was playing to the crowd a bit at times. Particularly when OZ stormed off to a 17 point lead.

New Zealand were all over them in terms of the contest. Oz played some bold defence, but the clearly better side won in what turned out to be a scrap. The scoreline made it exciting, but these two sides are miles apart in reality.

Late Edit: My initial post was a bit knee jerk right after watching. Bit ticked off my underdogs lost It was a superb game, and hats off to the Oz for hanging in there. Almost nicking it. Still don't like Nigel "look at me", all the same. Man of the match for me was that OZ number 8. Forgot his name now. One of their locks had a stormer too, but a lot of good displays out there on both sides. Oz #8 was massive.

on the mckenzie not releasing... can't see where his right arm is but his left hand does look like it released, nigel's first reaction is penalty for Australia but guess he changed his mind

don't think smith was ever held and it looks like there was just a hand on him when his knees hit the ground... would be a very harsh ball carrier not releasing

the one where beale tackles mckenzie is where i think the all blacks got extremely lucky... beale completes the tackle and gets up to poach and there is also another wallaby defender there
in that time mckenzie gets up and then pops, doesn't just pop from the ground

 

[mania]

I actually thought Tu'ungafasi was more to blame here,
not sure why they persist with him.

im not sure how he made it into the team. he offers nothing but has been an incumbent for over a year now.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

im not sure how he made it into the team. he offers nothing but has been an incumbent for over a year now.

I'd have thought that him covering both sides of the scrum will make him a real asset in a World Cup squad.

 

[mania]

I'd have thought that him covering both sides of the scrum will make him a real asset in a World Cup squad.

yeah but he's not an outstanding scrummager. sure he can play both sides but i'd prefer 2 specialist props who are world class.
tuugafasi also doesnt offer much as a defender or as a ball carrier.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Bear in mind he's only 25, and he only has 6 caps for the AB's. He comes from the same year group as Sopoaga and Perenara. However he has hasn't started much because he's so inexperienced at test level.
He is 122kg, so he's a genuinely big bugger, not the quickest around the park yet but powerful in the scrum and playing for the Blues doesn't exactly get him the best exposure at Super Rugby level in a pack that isn't always going forwards.
Carl Hayman wasn't the quickest around the park or in defence when he arrived on the scene but after bedding in he was a dynamite prop. Getting used to the speed of the game takes time and learning the defensive positioning is key for props because they are not particularly mobile.
His age group pedigree is excellent, he has ticked all the boxes.
He must have something about him for Hansen to be perservering with him.
Props are often like centres, they are slow to mature. It takes time to bed them in and get them used to the intensity of the coal face at test match level. It's 2 years until te RWC, he could have 15-20 caps by then and be ready to give his utmost at 27.
Versatility is key, being able to play both sides is very helpful in a big tournament.
He's not the finished article, if he improves and gains experience he will be a powerhouse.
Laulala may well be the better prospect at the moment but can he play both sides of the scrum? and if Tu'ungafasi develops and matures he could be a massive asset.
He does look like he's struggling to get to grips with the jump in pace between Super rugby level and Test level, but he's a newbie, it's going to happen. You have to give these guys a chance to see if they can start to swim in the stronger current.
Whats the other option?
Shut him out and lose a potential monster to overseas club rugby?
We have time before the next RWC to let the young guys develop and then cherry pick the best of the bunch. This is their chance to gain experience.
If Tu'ungafasi doesn't show enough promise in the window of opportunity, Hansen won't select him.
Look at Fekitoa. They gave him a good run.

Stephen Donald always springs to mind. The AB's tried him for what 40 odd caps? He never looked like starting material for the AB's against his peers at AB level. Eventually they dropped him.
He was a monster for Waikato and a solid kicker.
Was it three? first fives we lost in the 2011 RWC, so he gets the call up from the Waikato river where he was fishing... and because he had the previous experience, he keeps his nerve and slots the penalty.
Experience stands players in good stead.

 

[mania]

Bear in mind he's only 25, and he only has 6 caps for the AB's. He comes from the same year group as Sopoaga and Perenara. However he has hasn't started much because he's so inexperienced at test level.

whilst i agree with every thing you say there are better props out there who are further along and have heaps more potential.

 

[Larksea]

Stephen Donald always springs to mind. The AB's tried him for what 40 odd caps? He never looked like starting material for the AB's against his peers at AB level. Eventually they dropped him.
He was a monster for Waikato and a solid kicker.
Was it three? first fives we lost in the 2011 RWC, so he gets the call up from the Waikato river where he was fishing... and because he had the previous experience, he keeps his nerve and slots the penalty.
Experience stands players in good stead.

Donald only got ~23 caps.
he was much better than he ever got credit for and he had the hardest job in the world being compared to the best 10 the game has ever seen. He had some excellent performances in 2008 where he came off bench a few times when the AB's were down to produce some critical plays to win games. He did a solid job in 2009 and kept us in games we would have been well beaten in, included a big test Against Aussie where he scored 17 points marking Giteau and was probably the AB's best player behind McCaw, people tend to forget games like that. 2009 was a bad year for the AB's but it wasn't Donalds fault. The All Blacks lineout during the tri nations was an absolute disaster and was completely dominated by South Africa, Issac Ross was a complete failure and would go down as one of the worst All Black selections ever. When he was cut for Tom Donnelly and Henry took over the forwards coaching from Hansen it completely turned things around.

I know that wasn't the point of your post, I do get what you mean I just dont think Donald gets a fair deal.

Tu'ungafasi is a really interesting situation. This is his third year in the AB's environment? made his debut last year. Outside of U20's where he was very good he hasn't really earned his selection in the traditional way he's mostly earned it by having a lot of potential and being physically huge. but he hasn't really delivered on that potential yet which is ok but I think this year he should have stood out a bit more. Next year will probably be crunch time for him he will need to start standing out in super rugby to retain his place, right now Laulala and Moli are starting to look like better prospects for 2019.

 

[mania]

Issac Ross was a complete failure and would go down as one of the worst All Black selections ever.

no worst allBlack selection ever was markCarter but agree with everything else you say.

and agree with you jonesy. i'm overly critical of tuugafasi, and wanting him to show why he got selected. whilst i dont think he has the goods now, you are right that he has the framework to be a massive player. but he needs fire in his belly imo

 

[Larksea]

no worst allBlack selection ever was markCarter but agree with everything else you say.

and agree with you jonesy. i'm overly critical of tuugafasi, and wanting him to show why he got selected. whilst i dont think he has the goods now, you are right that he has the framework to be a massive player. but he needs fire in his belly imo

haha! I know this is a pretty meaningless argument but...

from what I can tell Mark played 7 tests and won 5? 71% wins the two losses to AUS were arguably during Australia's golden era of Rugby.
Ross played 8 tests only won 4 ? 50% success rate?

I think it would be really hard to find another all black with such a low winning %age as Issac Ross.

its not only that but during some of these tests the AB lineout was absolutely abominable, we struggled to win any of our own ball. Ross was calling the lineouts (a lot of this should be put on the coaches, bringing in a rookie lock and making him call lineouts was a really bad idea, but at the end of the day Ross was the one on the field and he had a nightmare)

carter was eventually a backup/fill-in player, Ross was a starting lock. Honestly I dont remember carter very well I was a kid at the time!