[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs Italy (26/02/2017)

[The Jones Boy]

But on the other hand if you want to see how it goes playing a bit differently, how different is it really going to be? Are you seriously considering Teo to replace Joseph? If so fine, but I doubt that's the case because even without his best form Joseph has done fine.

I think Teo would be a brilliant foil for Joseph if they play Teo at 12.
Joseph has done everything he can with an England pack playing below it's best. He's a class act and I'd pick him everytime for the big games as a starter for England.

 

[Peat]

Fair enough well remembered, why can't I remember Ford V Australia at home though?
Anyway I just don't see a reason to change styles, if you want to try out another guy I could see in this game but if Teo works do we play it in the next game?

About his mental strength, for England I wouldn't question it. But I think of you look at club form he's definitely gone through bad patches. Whether that's to do with his dad who knows?

Maybe you were drunk that year? I can't say I recall any reasons not to be drunk that year.

Ford's definitely gone through bad patches where his composure and timing have been off for club and country, although I'd ask which young fly-half doesn't - the trick is to outgrow the inconsistency.

I actually quite like that he's been through them and that he's bounced back and that we've seen what a worse case scenario from him looks like. You can still win with Ford playing poorly by his standards (as long as someone else is taking the kicking) and he doesn't let it get to his play and can still produce game winning moments (goal kicking aside where some days he starts poorly and you know its all going downhill from there). And he's not phased by being in a tricky position on the score board either, his dodgiest moments have come either from a) rest of team taking a solid beating b) off the pitch shenanigans.

I think my considered stance on the mental strength front is that while I think he's clearly got room for growth there (what 23 year old doesn't), it doesn't seem to be a major issue.


As for changing styles - in fairness, Jones has wanted England to be able to execute a style with a physical midfielder right from the beginning, just the stars didn't align. Now we can.

Short term, we have a definite carrying problem. Te'o for Joseph potentially solves that. I've no idea whether you'd start with him vs Scotland if things go well, but at least you'd be more practised at switching to the style when Te'o is sprung from the bench, which is no bad thing at all.

 

[Scotty]

I dont think teo can replace jj perminantly, teo will end up at 12 with a teo jj/daly combo but i do like that we have faz, daly teo slade watson nowell who all can play in at least 2 positions at a decent level ( nowell has played fb for chiefs and was actually quite good, though prob last resort for england)

Also predictions on scoreline for today? Our def has been strong i think we stop them scoring a try, and think we can put a cricket score on them if we get a strong start and teo running some good lines
Si score predections guys?

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Maybe you were drunk that year? I can't say I recall any reasons not to be drunk that year.

Ford's definitely gone through bad patches where his composure and timing have been off for club and country, although I'd ask which young fly-half doesn't - the trick is to outgrow the inconsistency.

I actually quite like that he's been through them and that he's bounced back and that we've seen what a worse case scenario from him looks like. You can still win with Ford playing poorly by his standards (as long as someone else is taking the kicking) and he doesn't let it get to his play and can still produce game winning moments (goal kicking aside where some days he starts poorly and you know its all going downhill from there).

I think the "as long as someone else is taking the kicking" is a major issue in test math rugby. As we've seen it has come down to such fine margins in the first two games. Without ford getting his percentage up to 80% there will always be the need for Farrell to start at 12 or 10.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Got to agree that the goalkicking is an issue with Ford, the problem is when he is bad he is really bad. I don't think it's the case that he can't ever be the primary goal kicker, just that if he is there should be a backup somewhere either in the pitch or on the bench. When he's on form (as he was for a long time until this season for Bath - and he's never had a shocker for England) he's absolutely fine, not at Farrell's level but no problem. If it all goes south, you want to be able to either hand the tee to someone else or bring Farrell or someone off the bench.

Or alternatively, he works on his goalkicking (especially the mental side) until the horror days no longer happen. I thought he'd achieved that last couple of seasons until all the crap with his Dad and wanting to leave brought it back this year. Maybe it's as simple as being happy in the environment he's in? Again, he never had this issue for England when he was the primary kicker.

 

[Which Tyler]

I think the "as long as someone else is taking the kicking" is a major issue in test math rugby. As we've seen it has come down to such fine margins in the first two games. Without ford getting his percentage up to 80% there will always be the need for Farrell to start at 12 or 10.

Which is a catch 22 situation. Ford can't get his international percentage up if he's never trusted to take the kicks; whilst club form with the boot is irrelevant for him - as it's already virtually identical to Farrell.
Of course, Slade putting his injury behind him, and finding form and game-time at 12 could be the answer to our prayers - he can do everything that Farrell does - usually better; and is more likely to play IC for his club (for the time being); whilst also having a good kicking record (at club level).

 

[Peat]

No argument that its a major issue. Biggest argument against him if there's only one of the pair. No argument too that he hasn't got a chance to show its fixed really until the kicking tee next comes his way on international duty, although having better season starts than 73.97 would help. Fazlet is on 80.31, which is in line with his kicking stats over the last international year, which incidentally I would suggest means he isn't exactly nailed on as first choice goal kicker either if a viable alternative is around.

There are a few other options available of course if Jones wants to continue with Ford at 10 and a goal kicker elsewhere. But - being a bit optimistic with some of them here - Slade has a career percentage of 75 and is kicking at 72.22 this season, Lozowski has a career percentage of 73.23 kicking at 62.17 this season, Woodward has a career percentage of 73.75 with a season percentage of 72.72, Shillcock is kicking at about 75pc... you want to put your money on one of England's maybe goal kickers developing into a genuine rival to Fazlet, you might as well stick it on Ford anyway.

Well, that or Ben Spencer. Ben Spencer is apparently not kicking this season but has a career percentage of 91.55pc. Uhm. Can he please fricking move somewhere that lets have him the tee if that is true? All stats courtesy of statbunker btw. If he's genuinely a 90pc kicker, there is the man to crowbar into the first XV... are his stats benefiting from coming on late with good leads when teams often go for the corners instead of taking on difficult kicks? Because those stats are insane.

 

[ncurd]

Again, he never had this issue for England when he was the primary kicker.

I feel in fairness to point out the silly pre Australian tour match we had against Wales.

However case in point we scored 5 try's that day so his kicking going missing was hardly required.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The FH being the goalkicker is largely arbitrary.

 

[ncurd]

The FH being the goalkicker is largely arbitrary.

This is pretty key point though and I think a legacy of the Wilko days. Most English fans seam to feel your fly-half needs to be your primary kicker (and if he isn't he's not doing his job) and I've really got no idea why we get stuck in that rut.

 

[Rararaz]

The FH being the goalkicker is largely arbitrary.

Isn't it because you often have your best open play kicker there so that they can influence the game from that position? Skills have a big overlap and the best kicker in open play is often a good goal kicker as well. That or, when younger, the same players put the effort into both skills which means they develop them more so than someone working on their explosiveness, sidestep etc.

I've always though the arbitrary decision is more that the hooker takes lineout throws in the modern game.

 

[ncurd]

I've always though the arbitrary decision is more that the hooker takes lineout throws in the modern game.

Isn't it to do with height? I think your Hooker is usually the shortest bloke in forward pack so he's pretty useless as a receiver.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Yeah but no reason he shouldn't lift and a prop throw

 

[Which Tyler]

Well, that or Ben Spencer. Ben Spencer is apparently not kicking this season but has a career percentage of 91.55pc. Uhm. Can he please fricking move somewhere that lets have him the tee if that is true? All stats courtesy of statbunker btw. If he's genuinely a 90pc kicker, there is the man to crowbar into the first XV... are his stats benefiting from coming on late with good leads when teams often go for the corners instead of taking on difficult kicks? Because those stats are insane.

I make his career stats 50/58 = 86%; and not really enough data points to suggest class yet; though it does look promisimg.
I'd be more interested in seeing him move to actually have a chance at first choice rugby, rather than just to get the kicking tee - mind you, I've been saying that for about 3 years now (and wanting him at Bath right up until we signed Kahn, when I wanted him at Bath to learn from the best, and take over in another year or two - which wouldn't be the best for Ben).

 

[Peat]

I make his career stats 50/58 = 86%; and not really enough data points to suggest class yet; though it does look promisimg.
I'd be more interested in seeing him move to actually have a chance at first choice rugby, rather than just to get the kicking tee - mind you, I've been saying that for about 3 years now (and wanting him at Bath right up until we signed Kahn, when I wanted him at Bath to learn from the best, and take over in another year or two - which wouldn't be the best for Ben).

Where you getting those stats from? I just used all on Statbunker, so that got his Cambridge days and everything he's done with Sarries.

He really does need to be first choice somewhere its true. He's Sam Harrison but worse for squandering his career so far.

 

[j'nuh]

I make his career stats 50/58 = 86%; and not really enough data points to suggest class yet; though it does look promisimg.
I'd be more interested in seeing him move to actually have a chance at first choice rugby, rather than just to get the kicking tee - mind you, I've been saying that for about 3 years now (and wanting him at Bath right up until we signed Kahn, when I wanted him at Bath to learn from the best, and take over in another year or two - which wouldn't be the best for Ben).

Also, what is his range like? Laidlaw's a great kicker, but his kicking percentage is high in part because he doesn't take kicks beyond 40m. I suspect, being a 9, Spencer wouldn't have as big a range as Farrell.

 

[brokenoses]

No argument that its a major issue. Biggest argument against him if there's only one of the pair. No argument too that he hasn't got a chance to show its fixed really until the kicking tee next comes his way on international duty, although having better season starts than 73.97 would help. Fazlet is on 80.31, which is in line with his kicking stats over the last international year, which incidentally I would suggest means he isn't exactly nailed on as first choice goal kicker either if a viable alternative is around.

There are a few other options available of course if Jones wants to continue with Ford at 10 and a goal kicker elsewhere. But - being a bit optimistic with some of them here - Slade has a career percentage of 75 and is kicking at 72.22 this season, Lozowski has a career percentage of 73.23 kicking at 62.17 this season, Woodward has a career percentage of 73.75 with a season percentage of 72.72, Shillcock is kicking at about 75pc... you want to put your money on one of England's maybe goal kickers developing into a genuine rival to Fazlet, you might as well stick it on Ford anyway.

Well, that or Ben Spencer. Ben Spencer is apparently not kicking this season but has a career percentage of 91.55pc. Uhm. Can he please fricking move somewhere that lets have him the tee if that is true? All stats courtesy of statbunker btw. If he's genuinely a 90pc kicker, there is the man to crowbar into the first XV... are his stats benefiting from coming on late with good leads when teams often go for the corners instead of taking on difficult kicks? Because those stats are insane.

To be fair to Slade, he only gets handed the tee for the awkward or long range kicks that Steenson doesn't fancy, and this will skew his stats. If he was first choice 10 and/or kicker then we would see what his kicking ability really is.

There seems to be a general opinion here that England are using a 10/12 axis due to lack of viable options at 12. But would it not make sense to really nail down this way of playing and find the combinations that can adapt to playing against different types of team? In an ideal world we would have a 12 who has the power to break the gainline, has the playmaking skills to draw defenders and release the outside backs, has an accurate boot to support the 10, and most importantly a keen rugby brain that can decide between these options with less time than a 9 or 10 is likely to have. Bit much isn't it? I think having two playmakers in the backline is a really positive way of playing, provided the balance is right across the backs and the rest of the team. Preferences aside, it's undeniable that Ford, Farrel and Slade all have the potential to be top quality international players. They all have different strengths, weaknesses and ways of playing, but why waste the talent of one of these players with a positional roadblock when all 3 can be utilised well?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's weird how Ford can mess up goal kicking so bad but can be extremely accurate with tactical kicking, it's almost like having the time to set up the kick puts him off...

Also with comparing Ford and Farrell to Sexton, Sexton is 31 with years of experience. When he was 23 (Ford and Farrells age) he was nowhere near as good as they are.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Ben Spencer is a great goal kicker, with Wigglrsworth apparently off to France and De Kock possibly retiring he could be first choice next year. Pretty sure he had a magical day in the LV cup final win

 

[McTallshort]

Remember Charlie Hodgson being an average goal kicker but superb attacking fly half. He lost out on England caps simply because he couldn't knock them over as often as St Johnny could. Missed out on some good rugby between 2003 and 2007 because of it.