[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs Italy (26/02/2017)

[Every Time Ref]

Ford is one of those players who time and again people focus on what he doesn't have, even though they are things that are covered in other places in the team. Yet what he does have, which no one does, is seemingly dismissed as a luxury. I agree with Peat, in a fly half crunching defence is the luxury - running the line and putting runners into space is the bread and butter of a 10 and he does it to a world class level. So Ford isn't in the top echelon of defenders in the world, big deal, no-one is saying Billy Vunipola should be dropped because he isn't a top class groundhog.

I don't know how many games England have to win with Ford at flyhalf and Farrell at 12 before we stop arguing over whether Ford should be dropped and Farrell moved. I'm posting drunk and probably getting a bit more passionate than necessary, but I honestly don't see what people's issue is with Ford sometimes.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Ford is one of those players who time and again people focus on what he doesn't have, even though they are things that are covered in other places in the team. Yet what he does have, which no one does, is seemingly dismissed as a luxury. I agree with Peat, in a fly half crunching defence is the luxury - running the line and putting runners into space is the bread and butter of a 10 and he does it to a world class level. So Ford isn't in the top echelon of defenders in the world, big deal, no-one is saying Billy Vunipola should be dropped because he isn't a top class groundhog.

I don't know how many games England have to win with Ford at flyhalf and Farrell at 12 before we stop arguing over whether Ford should be dropped and Farrell moved. I'm posting drunk and probably getting a bit more passionate than necessary, but I honestly don't see what people's issue is with Ford sometimes.

Don't think many here are saying the 10-12 should be changed.

 

[Every Time Ref]

You yourself said Farrell is a better 10 than Ford I thought, did I misread your point?

 

[Scotty]

Who will slade come on for? Obv not teo, cant have 3 10s at 10 12 and 13. So ford or faz. Ford is the best choice i think. Ford slade teo could work but also ford teo slade. Any thoughts?

 

[martinspoonboy1]

You yourself said Farrell is a better 10 than Ford I thought, did I misread your point?

I think Farrell is the heart of the team but ford should definitely start 10 and Farrell 12. They're both playing v well together. Why change it for the sake of it.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Who will slade come on for? Obv not teo, cant have 3 10s at 10 12 and 13. So ford or faz. Ford is the best choice i think. Ford slade teo could work but also ford teo slade. Any thoughts?

Slade's used to playing with crash ball 13s outside him at Ex in the form of Whitten, Hill and to an extent Devoto, so I reckon he'd do a good job with Te'o outside him. Would be interesting to see.

 

[Scotty]

Slade's used to playing with crash ball 13s outside him at Ex in the form of Whitten, Hill and to an extent Devoto, so I reckon he'd do a good job with Te'o outside him. Would be interesting to see.

But he also played alot at 13 for exeter with sam hill at 12 last season. As much has he doesnt have the pace of jj or daly but he can draw a defender to make space and gives a great a flat pass to the wingers. Prob will be put in at 12, the same vein as ford faz.

 

[Zed]

Another way to look at it is, if we had a decent 12 would Farrell be starting? I don't think so. Apart from goal kicking and defence he is a long way behind Ford. What we haven't seen is Farrell given a shot at 10 under Eddie Jones and that speaks volumes about Fords ability and our lack of 12 options.

Yeah this. Tuilagi is far more potent in attack. A good 12, arguably is big, powerful, quick, can step and has good ball skills. Tuilagi ticks 5 of those 6 boxes, ball skills not as good as Farrells. Yet Farrell would tick one of those boxes. He lacks pace and power and restricts how England play. Having someone like MT at 12, gives you more options. You can't use Farrell as a crash ball centre, using him as a dummy runner isn't going to attract defenders like a bigger guy would, he doesn't have the pace/step to make half breaks down the crowded 10/12 channel like Giteau James O Connor can and he doesn't have the pace to be used effectively in certain moves, wrapping around the 13 and getting the ball at pace isn't something he's going to be able to do Could he have opened up the All Blacks like Tuilagi did? At the moment he's going really well, but then so are England, easy to play well and look good when your team has gone 15/16 games unbeaten.

 

[Peat]

I don't know how many games England have to win with Ford at flyhalf and Farrell at 12 before we stop arguing over whether Ford should be dropped and Farrell moved.

All of them apparently.

I have to say that, while I like the combo and really don't want it split up the way things are, its got a really significant flaw in that neither of them are really challenging the other side ball in hand. Having the two passers available doesn't half cut up other teams at times but there's also prolonged periods where we're clearly struggling.

Long term, I'm not sure whether that's sustainable and whether we don't find we *need* two guys who can run the ball.

Its a pretty moot question when there's no one else but Te'o is being given the chance to start changing that tomorrow. If Te'o finishes the summer as a real starting option, we've got some real questions on our hands. The questions get even louder if, by some miracle, one of our playmaking centres finally takes off as an international player. An on form Slade basically does everything Farrell does ball in hand, only better.

When this happens - and if it hasn't happened by the end of the year, we've got serious problems - the argument for only one of Ford and Farrell will be really loud barring a significant uptick by both.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Good post, Peat. I'm not arguing for Ford to be dropped at the moment. But once we have viable centre options then they're head to head for the 10 shirt. My clear preference then would be Faz, but others will see it differently. Whoever it is would love a more reliable service from their 9; disappointed that Jones hasn't looked beyond Care and Youngs, both of whom can look either world class or total pants.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Jones has said he wants to top players in each position for the next World Cup. I think he's managed to do that apart from 10/ 12.

We don't know if Farrell can play 10 at international level and actually challenge teams and we don't really have a back up to the 10/ 12 combo.

 

[Peat]

Good post, Peat. I'm not arguing for Ford to be dropped at the moment. But once we have viable centre options then they're head to head for the 10 shirt. My clear preference then would be Faz, but others will see it differently. Whoever it is would love a more reliable service from their 9; disappointed that Jones hasn't looked beyond Care and Youngs, both of whom can look either world class or total pants.

I'd add the caveat that even when we have the options available, this might still be our best option and the head-to-head may never happen. Most successful teams have some flawed but effective units in there.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

All of them apparently.

I have to say that, while I like the combo and really don't want it split up the way things are, its got a really significant flaw in that neither of them are really challenging the other side ball in hand. Having the two passers available doesn't half cut up other teams at times but there's also prolonged periods where we're clearly struggling.

Long term, I'm not sure whether that's sustainable and whether we don't find we *need* two guys who can run the ball.

Its a pretty moot question when there's no one else but Te'o is being given the chance to start changing that tomorrow. If Te'o finishes the summer as a real starting option, we've got some real questions on our hands. The questions get even louder if, by some miracle, one of our playmaking centres finally takes off as an international player. An on form Slade basically does everything Farrell does ball in hand, only better.

When this happens - and if it hasn't happened by the end of the year, we've got serious problems - the argument for only one of Ford and Farrell will be really loud barring a significant uptick by both.

I think our ability to be able to adapt the way we play depending on circumstances throughout the game has been significant in success. If we're not on the front foot we can bring in players like George, Haskell who can give us front foot ball. Making the Farrell partnership much more effective. Without front foot ball, a player like teo or tuilagi can come in and give that go forward. Horses for courses some might say. Also think Farrell's boot can't be underestimated. Both out of hand and off the tee. If we had tuilagi at 12,Ford 10 we would certainly be losing out in both of the above .

 

[Peat]

Ford is a better kicker out of hand for my money.

 

[Every Time Ref]

All of them apparently.

I have to say that, while I like the combo and really don't want it split up the way things are, its got a really significant flaw in that neither of them are really challenging the other side ball in hand. Having the two passers available doesn't half cut up other teams at times but there's also prolonged periods where we're clearly struggling.

Long term, I'm not sure whether that's sustainable and whether we don't find we *need* two guys who can run the ball.

Its a pretty moot question when there's no one else but Te'o is being given the chance to start changing that tomorrow. If Te'o finishes the summer as a real starting option, we've got some real questions on our hands. The questions get even louder if, by some miracle, one of our playmaking centres finally takes off as an international player. An on form Slade basically does everything Farrell does ball in hand, only better.

When this happens - and if it hasn't happened by the end of the year, we've got serious problems - the argument for only one of Ford and Farrell will be really loud barring a significant uptick by both.

You speak a lot of sense. It is Farrell's big weakness as a centre that he doesn't challenge the line or draw defenders - the main reason it has taken me a while to catch up to Jones and be OK with this 10-12 combo. We do lack big ball carriers in the backline.

But if T'eo or A N Other emerged as an unignorable option as a power 12, and we started looking at that game plan ... I still don't really understand how Farrell, whose recent emergence as a top class player has been at 12, would suddenly be the best 10. He has played decently there before for England without ever being brilliant, and under Jones every time he's played there we have played worse than when Ford has.

Ford is a better kicker out of hand for my money.

You speak more sense - on a roll today mate.

Farrell barely kicks out of hand, actually. Sarries tend to kick from 9 (disclaimer - I haven't watched them much this year, maybe it's changed), and Ford / Youngs do the kicking for England.

 

[Scotty]

Teams dont really need to be scared of youngs ford faz combo as long as they can stop fwds producing quick ball, thats the issue. We lost mako hask and bill we lost alot of power which gave slower ball as well as robshaw who wasnt a huge carrier but did so much work and was everywwhere at the break down. I think slade is better option at 12 than faz in the long run. Not saying faz should be dropped but we are never going to get to the end of the ford ir faz at 10 debait so im not joining in...ok. Faz more reliable, can kick penalties and has come on so much to rival ford at the late pass. Ford weaker in def, kicking penalties and not quite as reliable but kicking frim hand and the late pass/ drawing defenders because he can run himself or putting someone in a gap there are non better but who to choose. Depends on the game plan

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Ford is a better kicker out of hand for my money.

Agreed again! You're not reading my comment. I'm saying that with tuilagi or teo we'll miss Farrell's kicking out of hand as a second kicking option after ford. And he's superior goal kicking to ford.

I'll stress again that ford should start as 10 and Farrell 12.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I think the 10 debate is a good one to have. Ford, Farrell, Lozowski and even Burns would be good players to have in there. I don't really see any point of breaking up the 10/12 now, unless you put Slade or Lozowski in there just to see how they do. Changing styles and having plan B is always useful but quite honestly I don't think we can do better. We have 100% success rate with this style.
On Farrell v Ford, it is a hard one. In a pressure situation I definitely don't want Ford. I may be incredibly one eyed and forgetful (massively open to that possibility) but I can't think of big games Ford has won where he is the main kicking guy. His defence is so frustrating. Who the hell has told him to tackle high? it must be instruction because no way when he was young and learning the game did he think to tackle the chest area. Positives for Ford though are his choosing of pass, running and kicking out of hand. Farrell has developed really well, and I think that his leadership is a big thing we would miss out on. I think he has this feeling he is going to win, when things are going wrong are Ford and Slade gonna have the same belief? Maybe they would but they aren't serial winners.

 

[Peat]

Agreed again! You're not reading my comment. I'm saying that with tuilagi or teo we'll miss Farrell's kicking out of hand as a second kicking option after ford. And he's superior goal kicking to ford.

I'll stress again that ford should start as 10 and Farrell 12.

Ah I did misread you, apologies.

I think the 10 debate is a good one to have. Ford, Farrell, Lozowski and even Burns would be good players to have in there. I don't really see any point of breaking up the 10/12 now, unless you put Slade or Lozowski in there just to see how they do. Changing styles and having plan B is always useful but quite honestly I don't think we can do better. We have 100% success rate with this style.
On Farrell v Ford, it is a hard one. In a pressure situation I definitely don't want Ford. I may be incredibly one eyed and forgetful (massively open to that possibility) but I can't think of big games Ford has won where he is the main kicking guy. His defence is so frustrating. Who the hell has told him to tackle high? it must be instruction because no way when he was young and learning the game did he think to tackle the chest area. Positives for Ford though are his choosing of pass, running and kicking out of hand. Farrell has developed really well, and I think that his leadership is a big thing we would miss out on. I think he has this feeling he is going to win, when things are going wrong are Ford and Slade gonna have the same belief? Maybe they would but they aren't serial winners.

Ford has won the LV Cup, 2 AP semi-finals, 4 out of 5 games in the 6N and vs Australia at home as primary kicker. He lost the two AP finals he started but that's not on his kicking as he was 5/6 and 4/4 in those two games; ironically the final he did win (when he came on for Flood vs Northampton in 2013) was his worst kicking performance of the lot. I can't recall if he's had any big European knock-out games, but without taking them into account, he's got a nifty enough record when first choice kicker and has won more than he's lost.

Which does also lead me to question the idea he's lacking in the self-belief front, or is anything other than a serial winner himself. One LV, one AP, and one 6N by the age of 23 is a nifty enough haul. Its not like he hasn't been part of some pretty difficult wins for England this past year either.

This isn't to say he's a ***an of mental strength who's never rattled. He obviously isn't that, just like he isn't a day in day out 80pc kicker. But he is clearly used to kicking and winning in big game situations and is no shrinking daisy.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Fair enough well remembered, why can't I remember Ford V Australia at home though?
Anyway I just don't see a reason to change styles, if you want to try out another guy I could see in this game but if Teo works do we play it in the next game?

About his mental strength, for England I wouldn't question it. But I think of you look at club form he's definitely gone through bad patches. Whether that's to do with his dad who knows?