[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs Italy (26/02/2017)

[ncurd]

Look I'm not questioning Italy's right to do the tactic or England's complete inability to play well against it. That's a different argument.

I'm just asking if the tournament does get decided on PD is it right that one team looses because they had a one-off tactic (as in it won't work against other teams as they'll be ready for it) deployed against them? Would Scottish fans be happy? Would Irish? I know the Welsh would be even more vocal if this had happened against them and still claiming the players were offside.

 

[McTallshort]

It's not on there anymore. Hardly surprising given The Guardian likes to believe it's the bastion of progressive thinking

 

[The5thOfficial]

I know the Welsh would be even more vocal if this had happened against them and still claiming the players were offside.

Rubbish! Total utter codswallop! If Italy or any team played that tactic against Wales and won, fair play to them!

 

[ncurd]

Rubbish! Total utter codswallop! If Italy or any team played that tactic against Wales and won, fair play to them!

Easy to say after the fact but I've seen enough reaction on forums over the years to know how you lot would actually react.

 

[mosfeldt]

Look I'm not questioning Italy's right to do the tactic or England's complete inability to play well against it. That's a different argument.

I'm just asking if the tournament does get decided on PD is it right that one team looses because they had a one-off tactic (as in it won't work against other teams as they'll be ready for it) deployed against them? Would Scottish fans be happy? Would Irish? I know the Welsh would be even more vocal if this had happened against them and still claiming the players were offside.

The 6n is quite frequently decided on how badly teams can trash Italy (and formerly Scotland). Not saying it's right, just the way it's been. Don't see how this is any different.

If it happened to us I'd be more annoyed at our inability to deal with it (if that were the case) rather than fuming at Italy for having employed it

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

While I don't want to see no rucks again, I think it will actually have done us some good in terms of focussing minds and actually thinking about playing what's in front of them, not what's endlessly drilled.

Actually quite nice to see some pick and go. An underused tactic that should be used more to keep defences guessing.

Apparently conditions were pretty horrible, which may explain some of the poor play.

3 from 3 without looking remotely convincing. Should I be concerned at the quality of performance, or should I be licking my lips about how much better we could get?

Its obvious how much we're missing Billy. But I think we're missing Kruis and Robshaw just as much, they both work so hard doing the dirty, unglamourous stuff.

 

[ncurd]

The 6n is quite frequently decided on how badly teams can trash Italy (and formerly Scotland). Not saying it's right, just the way it's been. Don't see how this is any different.

If it happened to us I'd be more annoyed at our inability to deal with it (if that were the case) rather than fuming at Italy for having employed it

Not actually true I looked at this just before the tournament its actually only been decided by that a couple of time.

Oh I'm totally ****** we didn't deal with it quicker. I'm not really annoyed Italy employed a perfectly legal tactic either. I'm more asking about tournament integrity of deciding who the best team were over the course of it. And in this a team was asked to cope with something none of the other teams had to that easily coachable if it were regularly used. Hence why Scotland/France who have yet to play Italy won't even being close to being as bamboozled as England were simply by the fact their coaching staff will prepare them for it. England on the other hand had to deal with it during the match and while its quite infiruiating they didn't cope with it until the coaches got hold of them we can't say no other team would of had to the same.

 

[Goodey]

Look I'm not questioning Italy's right to do the tactic or England's complete inability to play well against it. That's a different argument.

I'm just asking if the tournament does get decided on PD is it right that one team looses because they had a one-off tactic (as in it won't work against other teams as they'll be ready for it) deployed against them? Would Scottish fans be happy? Would Irish? I know the Welsh would be even more vocal if this had happened against them and still claiming the players were offside.

Okay, assuming that a new* negative** tactic used effectively*** in one game was the sole reason for a low-scorer**** and it costs that team the championship*****, then I'd say fair enough, because it shows that the team that bought it had an identifiable weakness which one team were able to exploit, while the other team that wins the championship weren't seen as having this weakness.

*it wasn't
**arguable
***not really
****did not happen
*****won't happen

Easy to say after the fact but I've seen enough reaction on forums over the years to know how you lot would actually react.

I've seen enough reaction on forums over the years to know we don't need to invent additional ones to complain about

 

[Which Tyler]

Exeter are an alright side, certainly decent I think.

He said "play for a decent side" not "trains with a decent side"

 

[The5thOfficial]

Easy to say after the fact but I've seen enough reaction on forums over the years to know how you lot would actually react.

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

 

[McTallshort]

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

Still won still got the bonus point still top of the table

 

[mosfeldt]

Still won still got the bonus point still top of the table

Still gonna lose on PD March 18th

 

[ncurd]

Okay, assuming that a new* negative** tactic used effectively*** in one game was the sole reason for a low-scorer**** and it costs that team the championship*****, then I'd say fair enough, because it shows that the team that bought it had an identifiable weakness which one team were able to exploit, while the other team that wins the championship weren't seen as having this weakness.

*it wasn't
**arguable
***not really
****did not happen
*****won't happen

* new enough that I've not seen it before and whilst it was utilised a lot in Super Rugby how much would NH teams seen of it? There has been citing that Pocock tried it once against Ireland and England said they were ready for it then but I don't think it constitutes something prevalent enough to 'trained for'.
** Its negative enough in my opinion in that the goal of it is stop the 9 from passing to anyone. Yes it easily counterable but at the expense of the backs getting in the game at all. Anything that stops 6 players in your team getting involved at all is pretty negative.
*** It was effective enough in that it stopped go forward ball whilst England wrapped their heads round it. Care still couldn't work it out in the second half and just stood there flumoxed.
**** I think your confusing loads and loads of points with a few extra scores, Ireland superior PD to us is purely because they racked up a score against Italy. If Italy decided to delay the onslaught for 20 mins using this tactic it changes the entire shape of the game. England couldn't afford to go all guns blazing because they were still trying to secure the win. Whilst Ireland didn't have to worry about it.
***** If England beat Scotland without a BP and lose to Ireland by a BP(which BTW is a perfectally reasonable assumption to make) it will be decided precisely by PD

Lastly your post assume England have this 'weakness' and Ireland did not. Whilst I'd hope any international team would adapt I think you'd be surprised about the amount of teams who wouldn't have.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Still won still got the bonus point still top of the table

No argument there. Didn't even deny the win was a good one - eventually. I'm just saying that for 40mins England looked clueless, and stupid, which was backed up by senior players needing the ref to explain the rule to them. Duh!

 

[ncurd]

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

Was Sam Warburton's red card deserved in 2011 world cup? That's how I know.

 

[ALJ]

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

It's kinda difficult to see what Wales are learning right now.
You haven't learned to close out a game (see England match).
You haven't learned any consistency.
There's no progression in the style of play or playing resources.

Although as a side, you're becoming very good at cynical play.

Our balls up left us with a little egg on our faces and a bonus point win.

What did Wales come away with this weekend?

 

[TW27BA]

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

You should save your scorn for your own team that failed to get a bp against the weakest Italy side in a long time. You still have the distinct possibility of losing to Ireland and France and finishing 5th.

Yep, England were made to look dumb (they were dumb) but they won, got a BP and are unbeaten without playing really well in any game.

 

[Goodey]

Lastly your post assume England have this 'weakness' and Ireland did not. Whilst I'd hope any international team would adapt I think you'd be surprised about the amount of teams who wouldn't have.

No, I didn't that was the point of my sarky asterisk thing. By assuming all those things it reduces the whole situation to a weird hypothetical that I don't think exists.

I don't think England have this weakness either. I think they played badly in a way that is largely distinct from Italy's shenanigans and the reason people (writers, pundits etc) are presenting it as some kind of tactical master stoke is because that's just a more interesting story than the real one. The real story is that England could have put 60 points past them if they had handled their chances better, kicked for territory more cleanly and place kicked excellently, which is what Ireland did in order to score 60 points.

If you put Ireland's performance from week 2 against Italy's performance from week 3 the result is still nine tries. England played like arse and scored six.

 

[ncurd]

Our balls up left us with a little egg on our faces and a bonus point win.

It should be noted of course Wales couldn't manage a bonus point win against Italy using conventional tactics.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Was Sam Warburton's red card deserved in 2011 world cup? That's how I know.

Wow you have to trawl ALLLLL the way back to 2011 for an example of how you 'know' - nothing! Every facet of the game is discussed, sometimes heatedly in these forums. No one principality or nationality is worse than the others here. But in answer to your question, I think he (North) held his hands up didn't he? It seemed harsh at the time but that's the way it goes. I can barely remember it!