[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 3: England vs Italy (26/02/2017)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Look I'm not questioning Italy's right to do the tactic or England's complete inability to play well against it. That's a different argument.

I'm just asking if the tournament does get decided on PD is it right that one team looses because they had a one-off tactic (as in it won't work against other teams as they'll be ready for it) deployed against them? Would Scottish fans be happy? Would Irish? I know the Welsh would be even more vocal if this had happened against them and still claiming the players were offside.

There's so many more factors in winning the tournament than the game against Italy, a lot of which is just dumb luck. Having Italy or a home game first up, having two of England, France and Wales at home and not losing by a big score if you do lose are all bigger factors to the final standing. On any given year, if you don't win the grandslam but beat a side with the same amount of w's on PD its hard to say you are deserving winners, Ireland's last two championship wins were over sides with the same amount of wins who had beaten them head to head, it was only due to winning the thing twice in a row that we could fairly say we're the best in Europe.

If we win our next to games and take it on PD or BP's (An equally trivial deciding factor) it wouldn't be reasonable to say we're the best side in Europe, England would have lost one of 10 games in the last two years whereas we'll have shipped three losses and a draw in the tournament, getting the trophy would just be a case of timing and luck like any other no slam year... Throwing away a slam in Murrayfield like 2001 would be a **** pill to swallow if we do go well over the next three weeks... (I'd really like a triple crown next year, its been a while after sharing it with Wales in the 2000's!)

 

[Car]

No, I didn't that was the point of my sarky asterisk thing. By assuming all those things it reduces the whole situation to a weird hypothetical that I don't think exists.

I don't think England have this weakness either. I think they played badly in a way that is largely distinct from Italy's shenanigans and the reason people (writers, pundits etc) are presenting it as some kind of tactical master stoke is because that's just a more interesting story than the real one. The real story is that England could have put 60 points past them if they had handled their chances better, kicked for territory more cleanly and place kicked excellently, which is what Ireland did in order to score 60 points.

If you put Ireland's performance from week 2 against Italy's performance from week 3 the result is still nine tries. England played like arse and scored six.

I couldn't agree more. Unless England were so puzzled by Italy's tactic that they couldn't do anything else properly any more, you really can't use that as an excuse.
Adapting to unforeseen circumstances is also necessary to win a tournament, so if that's what cost England in the end, maybe they just weren't good enough? Although that's all just speculation. As far as I see it, England still are the favourites to win it.

 

[ncurd]

Wow you have to trawl ALLLLL the way back to 2011 for an example of how you 'know' - nothing! Every facet of the game is discussed, sometimes heatedly in these forums. No one principality or nationality is worse than the others here. But in answer to your question, I think he (North) held his hands up didn't he? It seemed harsh at the time but that's the way it goes. I can barely remember it!

Well clearly you've not seen numerous posts by your countrymen still going on about how it was not a red card for years afterwards. The point was to show how the Welsh react when things go badly for them.

The team I always credit to Warburton admitted to it being a red card offence immediately afterwards. Unfortunate but still what it was.

 

[The5thOfficial]

Well clearly you've not seen numerous posts by your countrymen still going on about how it was not a red card for years afterwards. The point was to show how the Welsh react when things go badly for them.

The team I always credit to Warburton admitted to it being a red card offence immediately afterwards. Unfortunate but still what it was.

Like I said, every country and/or principality overdo it here. Just like England will with this topic!

 

[munstermuffin]

The thing on PD is if England knew rules they could've exploited them easily with pick and go and got plenty of scores.

Bottom line is England got caught out for 40mins and are looking for excuses rather than admitting they were caught on hop and didn't know rules

 

[The5thOfficial]

The thing on PD is if England knew rules they could've exploited them easily with pick and go and got plenty of scores.

Bottom line is England got caught out for 40mins and are looking for excuses rather than admitting they were caught on hop and didn't know rules

Yep +1

 

[corny]

The thing on PD is if England knew rules they could've exploited them easily with pick and go and got plenty of scores.

Bottom line is England got caught out for 40mins and are looking for excuses rather than admitting they were caught on hop and didn't know rules

I agree but it was longer than 40 mins. They never really adapted at all. Forming the maul was their only innovation half to half and that had limited success. Never occurred to anyone the tackled player could just let go, stand up and make obscene yardage through the middle. They just seemed programmed to present the ball for the scrum half.

Haskell and Hartley asking the referee to tell them what to do was priceless. It exposed a clear lack of leadership and intelligence in the pack imo. They were all just looking at one another during breaks in play.

 

[munstermuffin]

I agree but it was longer than 40 mins. They never really adapted at all. Forming the maul was their only innovation half to half and that had limited success. Never occurred to anyone the tackled player could just let go, stand up and make obscene yardage through the middle. They just seemed programmed to present the ball for the scrum half.

Haskell and Hartley asking the referee to tell them what to do was priceless. It exposed a clear lack of leadership and intelligence in the pack imo. They were all just looking at one another during breaks in play.

That's it exactly. I think Jones is worried going to Ireland now.

 

[NickBD]

Eddie won't be worried first he has to concentrate on Scotland first and then Ireland. England know Ireland are a good team.

3 games England haven't been great yet 3 wins and top of the 6N. After 17 wins in a row beating Ireland in the process I'd suggest he defiantly isn't worried. Judging by the post from Irish about mocking Farrell during game about Sexton to this would suggest your worried.

 

[mosfeldt]

Judging by the post from Irish about mocking Farrell during game about Sexton to this would suggest your worried.

Please clarify... :huh:

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Please clarify... :huh:

I think we should be worried because their talisman player had a howler and is worse than ours?! It doesn't make much sense. I'm buzzing for that game though, The last time an international side not wearing black or green won in Dublin was 2013, I don't see change coming!

 

[martinspoonboy1]

"You lot" - LOL LOL!!! Me thinks the English team were made to look pretty stoopid for a whole half - and now we have the distraction of a fortune teller saying how other teams would react had it happened to them. And this of course takes the focus off what actually happened in the Eng v Italy match - The entire England team being made to look, erm.. stoopid! As for how Wales team or fans would react - we'll never know, because we've learnt from the England ballsup!

But you haven't learnt from the Autumn . Still a horror show out west!

 

[Mike Rolls]

I agree but it was longer than 40 mins. They never really adapted at all. Forming the maul was their only innovation half to half and that had limited success. Never occurred to anyone the tackled player could just let go, stand up and make obscene yardage through the middle. They just seemed programmed to present the ball for the scrum half.

Haskell and Hartley asking the referee to tell them what to do was priceless. It exposed a clear lack of leadership and intelligence in the pack imo. They were all just looking at one another during breaks in play.

Not sure that obscene yardage through the middle would have been all that easy - much of the time, in addition to a few players camped in England's areas, Italy had three or four players lust a yard or so back from the tackle area waiting for just just an attempt. A break through, yes, but obscene yardage?
Mike

 

[mcclecce]

Ffs

Its an easy game, you run, kick or tackle all this bull**** about forming a maul from a kick off, WTF is that all about and the one time Launchberry has a bit of a run he's away, did we learn from that Nooo...
Did we just pick and go Noooo...(and why are all the good footballers on the bench, Sincklers burst up field? Nowell two tries)
England are flat, Hartley needs to go, they need to innovate or the men in Green will kick their asses off the turf in Ireland...oh crap I just remembered I'm English (thats if the Scots don't show us up at Twickenham before)

 

[Mike Rolls]

There's so many more factors in winning the tournament than the game against Italy, a lot of which is just dumb luck. Having Italy or a home game first up, having two of England, France and Wales at home and not losing by a big score if you do lose are all bigger factors to the final standing. On any given year, if you don't win the grandslam but beat a side with the same amount of w's on PD its hard to say you are deserving winners, Ireland's last two championship wins were over sides with the same amount of wins who had beaten them head to head, it was only due to winning the thing twice in a row that we could fairly say we're the best in Europe.

If we win our next to games and take it on PD or BP's (An equally trivial deciding factor) it wouldn't be reasonable to say we're the best side in Europe, England would have lost one of 10 games in the last two years whereas we'll have shipped three losses and a draw in the tournament, getting the trophy would just be a case of timing and luck like any other no slam year... Throwing away a slam in Murrayfield like 2001 would be a **** pill to swallow if we do go well over the next three weeks... (I'd really like a triple crown next year, its been a while after sharing it with Wales in the 2000's!)

Absolutely. Having PD and BP in a set up like the 6N is utterly stupid.
Mike

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Its an easy game, you run, kick or tackle all this bull**** about forming a maul from a kick off, WTF is that all about and the one time Launchberry has a bit of a run he's away, did we learn from that Nooo...
Did we just pick and go Noooo...(and why are all the good footballers on the bench, Sincklers burst up field? Nowell two tries)
England are flat, Hartley needs to go, they need to innovate or the men in Green will kick their asses off the turf in Ireland...oh crap I just remembered I'm English (thats if the Scots don't show us up at Twickenham before)

I share your feelings. What has happened to the side that looked so good in the summer against Australia and in the autumn series? It's hard to believe that they are (mostly) the same players.
Mike

 

[mcclecce]

Absolutely. Having PD and BP in a set up like the 6N is utterly stupid.
Mike

- - - Updated - - -


I share your feelings. What has happened to the side that looked so good in the summer against Australia and in the autumn series? It's hard to believe that they are (mostly) the same players.
Mike

My own theory is there is some disquiet in the squad, clearly the Captain is not the best hooker maybe not even second best. The Captain has to be an automatic choice, add that to his lack of form and maybe just maybe some players are getting somewhat cheesed off, over training may be another issue are they leaving it on the training ground? There is also a definite lack of creativity in the team, surely all Rugby players at that level can pass and run? It can't all be set piece and training ground moves..

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Hmmm

My own theory is there is some disquiet in the squad, clearly the Captain is not the best hooker maybe not even second best. The Captain has to be an automatic choice, add that to his lack of form and maybe just maybe some players are getting somewhat cheesed off, over training may be another issue are they leaving it on the training ground? There is also a definite lack of creativity in the team, surely all Rugby players at that level can pass and run? It can't all be set piece and training ground moves..

Whilst I agree about Mr Hartley he's still presiding over a pretty decent winning run. I suspect that despite all the talk about strength in depth that the extra couple of % really really matter at the highest level. Kruis, Vunipola and Robshaw were playing out their skins when injury robbed us of their services. Vunipola especially changes the whole picture for the backline. Basically he rarely ever loses the gainline. Ford and Farrell can look forward and run moves they've practiced. Under pressure the game changes and when Italy play silly buggers and we lack the intelligence to find a way round it. The final point feels horribly like over coaching to me. There's just no way the All Blacks spend 30 minutes being unable to find a way round any slightly different tactic. England just carried on setting wide as if the Italian 9 was going to vanish and suddenly start allowing it. I was there an it was horrible to watch. That and the fact they started like absolute chumps. Kicks were poor, tackles were poor, Cole was being Mr Penalty etc.

 

[ALJ]

My own theory is there is some disquiet in the squad, clearly the Captain is not the best hooker maybe not even second best. The Captain has to be an automatic choice, add that to his lack of form and maybe just maybe some players are getting somewhat cheesed off, over training may be another issue are they leaving it on the training ground? There is also a definite lack of creativity in the team, surely all Rugby players at that level can pass and run? It can't all be set piece and training ground moves..

How is that anything more than pure speculation?

To read that you'd think the team was in tatters and there was a full blown revolt.

England are not playing well but are still winning - I really don't see why we have to follow the media and look for reasons to tear the team down.

Despite all the weirdness of Saturday, we still scored 6 tries and that's with Farrell having his worst game in an England shirt, an untried O/C, a back row that changes by the week and a number of players (Hartley, Marler, Vunipola, Haskell) having played virtually no rugby prior to the start of the tournament.
We're also unbeaten and top of the table.

I'm pretty sure most teams would give their right arms to have our troubles.

 

[The5thOfficial]

But you haven't learnt from the Autumn . Still a horror show out west!

Ahhh yet another deflection from the current topic!

 

[TommiG88]

Is the game worth watching? I was at Wembley yesterday so couldn't catch the game.