2017 British & Irish Lions Squad Announcement

[TobesHodges]

Good squad, Really glad Jamie George is in, also i think Liam Williams and Nowell played there way in, impressively over the 6N, Wasn't expecting Daly and Payne (though maybe an old Kiwi head in the ditches and on the paddock isnt a bad move). I'm not to surprised at the Bigger call, it was always between Ford, him and Russell, as much as it pains me to say, he is a slightly better kicker and probably offers a bit more in defence than them and has a bit more Tenacity around the pitch. Decent forwards, sad for the Hask as he's having bit of a swansong season which had probably Merited a place. Though it looks a solid pack.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Question what is wrong with Gatlands welsh players?
Owens --> Better than Hartley and Ford IMO.
AWJ --> More experianced than both Grays, he is better than Richie and has a lot more experiance v the AB than Johnny
Warburton -> IMO the obvious captain
Tipuric --> Just a bit better than Watson but has more experiance
Moriarty -> had a great 6N's and Tour v NZ, Watson better 7 but I think Gatland is planning on using Moriarty as an 8. Heaslip might feel unlucky but he only covers 8.
TF -> Obvious choice.
Webb --> Obvious choice
Bigger --> Questionable
Davies --> Ringrose unlucky but Davies has a huge amount of experiance both with lions and in NZ
North --> Obvious choice
Williams --> Obvious choice
Halfpenny --> Not sold on him this season but he is better than the remaining options

So Bigger is the only questionable choice IMO and both Russell and Ford failed to really shine in high pressure games this year, Bigger isn't good IMO but he knows what to expect in NZ, Russell and Ford both have yet to start v NZ let alone face them in NZ.

IMO Gatlands biggest question marks are Irish and England selections namely
Henderson over Ryan or Launchbury
Lawes over Ryan or Launchbury (I like Lawes TBF)
T'eo over Ringrose or a Scottish Centre
Payne over Ringrose.

You've managed to find reasons in all cases to justify selections but that doesn't mean they aren't all marginal calls which went the way of Welsh players. Its accepted that in a lions tour there are always disappointed players and tough calls to be made. This time around, you tell me what the nationalities of those players are.

Basically put it the other way; which Wales players were genuinely close but just missed out? Rob Evans maybe?

Ireland: Kearney, Heaslip, Ringrose, Healy, Ryan, all wingers
England : Hartley, Launchbury, Ford, Robshaw, Haskell
Scotland: Can't really be bothered to go through them but quite a few names.

So I just think you've put the question backwards.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally I think a team of
1) Vunipola, 2) Owens, 3) Cole
4) Kruis, 5) Itoje
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) TF
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) Joesph
11) Williams, 14) North, 15) Hogg

16) George, 17) McGrath, 18) Furlong
19) Henderson, 20) Vunipola
21) Youngs, 22) Farrell, 23) Watson

Could beat the AB with the right tactics. It certainly has the talent.

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Personally I think a team of
1) Vunipola, 2) Owens, 3) Cole
4) Kruis, 5) Itoje
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) TF
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) Joesph
11) Williams, 14) North, 15) Hogg

16) George, 17) McGrath, 18) Furlong
19) Henderson, 20) Vunipola
21) Youngs, 22) Farrell, 23) Watson

Could beat the AB with the right tactics. It certainly has the talent.

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You've managed to find reasons in all cases to justify selections but that doesn't mean they aren't all marginal calls which went the way of Welsh players. Its accepted that in a lions tour there are always disappointed players and tough calls to be made. This time around, you tell me what the nationalities of those players are.

Basically put it the other way; which Wales players were genuinely close but just missed out? Rob Evans maybe?

Ireland: Kearney, Heaslip, Ringrose, Healy, Ryan, all wingers
England : Hartley, Launchbury, Ford, Robshaw, Haskell
Scotland: Can't really be bothered to go through them but quite a few names.

So I just think you've put the question backwards.

Davies V Youngs

How many of those Irish players really deserved to be in Over the welsh players though? Ringrose.
You mention Healy but he had no welsh players ahead of him.
Haskell and Robshaw prob wasn't close either. Hartley is his own worse enemy.

The point is being made that Gatland is being bias to the welsh players I'm saying that only 2 of the welsh players are questionable the other IMO are far enough ahead of the other options to not be questioned.

 

[McTallshort]

I would say 1 is questionable otherwise Gatland and his staff have selected a decent side. Payne is the other one I would question but I can live with it.

Not sure what everyone is moaning at.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Personally I think a team of
1) Vunipola, 2) Owens, 3) Cole
4) Kruis, 5) Itoje
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) TF
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) Joesph
11) Williams, 14) North, 15) Hogg

16) George, 17) McGrath, 18) Furlong
19) Henderson, 20) Vunipola
21) Youngs, 22) Farrell, 23) Watson

Could beat the AB with the right tactics. It certainly has the talent.

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Personally I think a team of
1) Vunipola, 2) Owens, 3) Cole
4) Kruis, 5) Itoje
6) Stander, 7) Warburton, 8) TF
9) Murray, 10) Sexton
12) Henshaw, 13) Joesph
11) Williams, 14) North, 15) Hogg

16) George, 17) McGrath, 18) Furlong
19) Henderson, 20) Vunipola
21) Youngs, 22) Farrell, 23) Watson

Could beat the AB with the right tactics. It certainly has the talent.

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Davies V Youngs

How many of those Irish players really deserved to be in Over the welsh players though? Ringrose.
You mention Healy but he had no welsh players ahead of him.
Haskell and Robshaw prob wasn't close either. Hartley is his own worse enemy.

The point is being made that Gatland is being bias to the welsh players I'm saying that only 2 of the welsh players are questionable the other IMO are far enough ahead of the other options to not be questioned.

I take your point, I just think that wherever there were tough choices to be made, the Welsh guys got over the line if they were even on the table - thats all. And again that's not their fault or by the way the Welsh publics fault that they have to apologise for, just how it seems to be.

- I would have taken Heaslip over Moriarty and Ringrose over Davies, probably. That changes things already from 12/11 split to a 9/14 split in Irelands favour, far more reflective of recent (18 months) international form.

- Quite significantly I also wouldn't have taken Halfpenny. How many potential full-backs do we have now? Hogg (clear first choice), Payne, Halfpenny, then both Williams and Daly. Halfpenny would be pretty far back in my queue of those players.

- Ford or Russell over Biggar.

- Fair enough about Healy - Marler got lucky there.

- Robshaw probably wasn't close you're right but I reckon he should have been. He's such a good player and hugely underrated, always will be. You've got 3 Welsh backrowers ahead of him. I don't begrudge any of them, especially not Warburton, but think about what England have achieved and how important Robshaw has been to that. As important as Warburton has been to Wales, albeit in an entirely different way.

 

[McTallshort]

Marler lucky? how?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Marler lucky? how?

Not lucky, but a close call between Healy and him is what I meant.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Robshaw I can understand why the 3 welsh backrower a are ahead of him
Warburton and Tips are both better 7's
Moriarty is a better 6/7/8

Heaslip only covers 8 and we have two better 8's than him IMO in Vunipola and TF. It comes to a point of how many is too many you could select 3 players in each position BUT that might hinder squad bonding ala SCW tour.

Re Halfpenny yes we have 6 potential 15's but 5 of them are also covering other positions and how many have started 15 for there country?

 

[ALJ]

A specific plan in mind is justification for players selection who you'd expect to start and sometimes the bench for forwards. However I really don't like it on the bench, I don't want a continuation of the plan in the backs, I want the bench to be able to change the plan in case its not working. Most back players unless injured should play a full 80mins.

Its a question of bench usage do you see it as injury cover? or a way of changing your tactics? I see it as more the latter these days.

Which is fair enough but you get 3 backs on the bench, SH, FH and A.N. Other.

May be I'm just kidding myself but I don't remember seeing 10s being brought on to change the style of the game that often these days and when trying to bring together a disparate group of players, you can see the sense in continuity as the time to develop multiple game plans is limited (arguably Gatland and Howley aren't that way inclined either).

 

[McTallshort]

Not sure it was that close

 

[ALJ]

Agreed that last point although for me Farrell is going as starting 12 3rd choice 10 if needed.

I honestly don't understand why you would see it that way, other than taking a distinctly English view.

There are 6 centres in the squad not including Farrell - why do that at the expense of another FH if Farrell is ear-marked for the No.12 spot?

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Robshaw I can understand why the 3 welsh backrower a are ahead of him
Warburton and Tips are both better 7's
Moriarty is a better 6/7/8

Heaslip only covers 8 and we have two better 8's than him IMO in Vunipola and TF. It comes to a point of how many is too many you could select 3 players in each position BUT that might hinder squad bonding ala SCW tour.

Re Halfpenny yes we have 6 potential 15's but 5 of them are also covering other positions and how many have started 15 for there country?

The way I see it is you have:
7: Warburton, Tips and O'Brien
6: Stander, Moriarty, Warburton, PoM, Itoje (even Henderson if needs be).
8: BV, TF, PoM, Moriarty.

I know you can argue for other players to be included but it looks pretty well balanced to me with cover in all positions.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I

The way I see it is you have:
7: Warburton, Tips and O'Brien
6: Stander, Moriarty, Warburton, PoM, Itoje (even Henderson if needs be).
8: BV, TF, PoM, Moriarty.

I know you can argue for other players to be included but it looks pretty well balanced to me with cover in all positions.

Personally I think so considering you can't just have a huge squad of 45 players in it.

I think people are putting too much emphasis on numbers.


I mean I have seen people on social media saying that Wigglesworth should be going like WTF???? I swear so many people have such weird perception of players. Wigglesworth is a club player that's it a very good one but like WTF.

Another welsh player who is unlucky is Scott Williams.

 

[McTallshort]

What about Chris Ashton?

 

[ALJ]

What about Chris Ashton?

Well with Stuart Barnes arguing for Ashton and Stephen Jones not even including Hogg in his squad, you can assume that The Times 'pundits' have completely lost the plot

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What about Chris Ashton?

Don't get me started on that.

 

[NickBD]

I honestly don't understand why you would see it that way, other than taking a distinctly English view.

There are 6 centres in the squad not including Farrell - why do that at the expense of another FH if Farrell is ear-marked for the No.12 spot?

Not really a distinctly English view. Just basing it on the past 12 months. I don't know what's not to understand Farrell has been the starting 12 for England for 2 years now and favourite to start at 12 for the Lions. Most pundits/former pros like O'Driscoll have Farrell at 12. You have 5 centres without Farrell unless I'm missing someone Daly, Davies, Henshaw, Joseph, Te'o. Daly will be use as a utility back so 4. I'd argue 3 or those are 13s. So Farrell or Henshaw for starting Lions 15. Bigger/Henshaw for midweeks Sexton/Farrell starters.

Edit - forgot Payne again he's more of a 13 for me.,

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Hey with injuries that number could reach as high as 3 or 4.

Haha. ABs having the creature comforts of home can afford to light in a couple of areas when their final 31/32 are selected - I suspect Hansen may only go for 2 hookers in Coles/Taylor or 2 scrumhalves in Smith and Perenara, allowing him to overload in other positions knowing an injury to those any of those means he can call up replacements readily.

Who are your 4 new additions who have not previously played for ABs?

 

[MikeTheNative]

I still think it's joke that Henson didn't get a call up. Interestingly England have more players on the tour this time than Wales did in 2013.

 

[msf]

I shall have my annual say then.

I don´t have too many problems with this squad. I mean, I wouldn´t have picked it, and I don´t think Eddie Jones or Vern Cotter or even Joe Schmidt would have picked it, but then they weren´t picked to coach the Lions, so what did you expect? It should be obvious to everyone that Gatland feels much more comfortable with solid, dependable players that fit a simple gameplan. In that context, he wouldn´t have used most of the players he left out effectively anyway. I personally would rather see George Ford taking the Argentinian defence apart, ball in hand, than doing a poor impression of Dan Biggar (who himself would be doing a poor impression of Owen Farrell and Jonny Sexton´s lovechild) on a wet, windy pitch against a Maori team told to go out and break all the creative players before the Test series. If they think about it, I´m sure the Scots would rather see Finn Russell doing likewise under a coach (Townsend) who actually appreciates him.

It´s starting to sound like I have a problem with Gatland, but I really don´t. It´s not clear to me that his approach isn´t the most sensible one in a Lions context - how long did it take Eddie Jones to get the England attack firing? At least a whole Six Nations. The same goes, but to an even greater extent, for Schmidt and Cotter. How long did it take Gatland to get Wales playing Gatball? Didn´t they win the Grand Slam first time doing so? And I haven´t really seen any attacking improvements under him since then. The only ones I´ve seen have come since Alex King was put in charge of the attack under Howley, and he´s not going on the Lions trip anyway. Perhaps we could have hoped he would, or that Townsend had taken up the offer, but I couldn´t see either of them getting their way with Test selection over Gatland, Farrell, Rowntree and Borthwick, just as I can´t see Howley doing so either.

So, it shouldn´t have really been a surprise to anyone that the most creative players from the most creative teams aren´t going, unless they are also the most dependable ones (i.e. Sexton, when his body works.)

 

[ncurd]

I still think it's joke that Henson didn't get a call up. Interestingly England have more players on the tour this time than Wales did in 2013.

Depends how you look at it,

2013 initial squad 37 players (41% Welsh, 27% English, 24% Irish, 8% Scottish)
2017 initial squad 41 players (39% English, 29% Welsh, 27% Irish, 5% Scottish)

Plus Wales were nowhere near on the winning form England have been over the last 18 months.


In reality I'd probably find and Englishman (Te'o) or two (ummmmm ?Cole?) I think don't deserve a place.