2017 British & Irish Lions Squad Announcement

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Lets be clear even if Sexton gets croaked when would you ever choose to bring on Biggar instead of moving Farrell to fly-half?

Hell even if Sexton was injured before a game you'd move Farrell there before Biggar.

So you have to ask why is Biggar there? He brings nothing as a bench player for impact and he won't start. The only time he'll even play in a test match is if both Farrell and Sexton get injured.

Even then against the AB's I'd rather Ford or Russell who are players who can create try scoring opportunities against the toughest of defences on the bench.

This is exactly it. Let's assume the worst which is Sexton getting injured, and then imagine the game-plan we need to play to beat New Zealand, featuring Dan Bigger at 10. Can anyone see us winning that game? Is he able to pull all the right levers to help us score not just multiples of 3 but also some tries? No! To be clear, this isn't an anti-welsh sentiment, it's purely a question of how the hell do we beat New Zealand.

 

[ncurd]

For clarification I'm targeting the Welsh fans supporting the selection of Biggar specifically. Most of them who have posted it to be madness they know it is.

 

[ALJ]

Lets be clear even if Sexton gets croaked when would you ever choose to bring on Biggar instead of moving Farrell to fly-half?

Maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me that Farrell has been picked as a 10 - there are only 3 in the squad that I can see and you've got Te'o, Davies, Payne, JJ, Henshaw and Daly for the centres.

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It's not surprising, but I find it odd how Warburton can be chosen as captain considering he had to bottle the Wales captaincy due to it effecting his performance so much.

Bottled the Wales Captaincy? Are you joking?

6 years as captain (named when 22), Grand Slam winner (as captain), captain of the Lions during a successful tour.

That he gave it up to focus on his game is a mark of the man to my mind, quite how you can see fit to denigrate him for it is beyond me.

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[ncurd]

I think that just furthers the question of "Why Biggar?". I suppose if/when Sexton gets croaked he'll be on the bench but still I can't imagine a single game circumstance where you'd bring him on over Farrell.

I mean unless he plays as poorly as he did against Italy but that was rarity.

 

[TRF_heineken]

So breakdown by Birth
15 England: Cole, Daly, J.Davies, Farrell, George, Itoje, Joseph, Kruis, Lawes, Moriarty, North, Nowell, Sinckler, Watson, Youngs
8 Wales: Bigger, Halfpenny, AWJ, Owens, Tipuric, Warburton, Webb, Williams
7 Ireland: Best, Furlong, Henderson, Henshaw, McGrath, Murray, Sexton, O'Brien
2 New Zealand: Payne, T'eo
2 Tonga: Faletau, M.Vunipola
1 Austrlia: B.Vunipola
1 Scotland: Hogg
1 South Africa: Stander
1 USA: Seymour

Wow, so 6 guys from the SH... that's 14%!!

For clarification I'm targeting the Welsh fans supporting the selection of Biggar specifically. Most of them who have posted it to be madness they know it is.

No offence, but I also had Sexton and Biggar as the first 2 choices at flyhalf. With Farrell as the 3rd flyhalf, but also covering 12.

 

[General Melchett]

The moment you choose a coach who has charge of one of the four home nations, this is going to happen. It doesn't need to be deliberate, it's just an inevitable by-product of the fact that he knows some players better than others. It's the same reason we all rate our own club / national team players on average slightly more highly than outsiders do.

Gatland clearly goes in for a bit of pragmatism here in the sense that he's picking players who he believes can help him win. He's therefore more inclined to go with those he has more experience playing with. My objection to this would simply be that I think the lions has such a strong meritocratic tradition than selection has to come first, and the game-plan later.

I hope the Lions committee learn from this when their inquest starts after the 3-0 drubbing. Picking an incumbent head coach who is on sabbatical generates a big conflict of interest. This was never an issue when Geechs was head coach when squad selection and marginal calls were made on merit.

 

[ncurd]

No offence, but I also had Sexton and Biggar as the first 2 choices at flyhalf. With Farrell as the 3rd flyhalf, but also covering 12.

I know you know you're in the minority on this one. However it was more on basing the reasoning like performances from 18 months and needing to be physical to beat the ABs over the players I'd prefer.

Now I like a dynamic game-plan I like fly-half who creates chances and I like a 2nd distributor at inside-center. If it were up to me I'd start Ford at fly-half or at least have him on the bench to replace Sexton with Farrell at 12. However I know that is not going to happen I had some small hope Ford would be on the bench for tests.

Biggar for is just so underwhelming as a fly-half solid defence but nothing special, okayish in attack but again does nothing special and very rarely looks like he's controlling the game doing just what he's been coached without any thought.

 

[ALJ]

I think that just furthers the question of "Why Biggar?". I suppose if/when Sexton gets croaked he'll be on the bench but still I can't imagine a single game circumstance where you'd bring him on over Farrell.

I mean unless he plays as poorly as he did against Italy but that was rarity.

I think the point is:
You are never going to tour with less than 3,
They would appear to have a specific plan in mind and running 10s aren't a part of it (otherwise you'd have expected to see Russell or Ford in the squad).

So who do you pick? Not many options really and, while I'm not necessarily Biggar's biggest fan, I don't think he's quite the waste of time some appear to see him as.

 

[ncurd]

I hope the Lions committee learn from this when their inquest starts after the 3-0 drubbing. Picking an incumbent head coach who is on sabbatical generates a big conflict of interest. This was never an issue when Geechs was head coach when squad selection and marginal calls were made on merit.

TBF we had a similar problem with SCW who picked players and a gameplan based on 2 years previous. He was not on sabbatical and was an entirely justified selection considering he had just won a world cup.

I don't know how you can pick a Lions coach anymore without bias. Honestly who was there to pick from who would not of been compromised in this way?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I reckon Gats will go with ATM
Test team
1) McGrath
2) Owens
3) Cole
4) AWJ
5) Itoje
6) Stander
7) Warburton (C)
8) TF
9) Murray
10. Sexton
11. Williams
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. North
15. Halfpenny

16. George
17. Vunipola
18. Furlong
19. Kruis
20. Vunipola
21. Webb
22. Hogg
23. Henshaw/Davies

Midweek
1. Vunipola
2. Best (C)
3. Furlong
4. Lawes
5. Kruis
6. POM
7. Tipuric
8. Moriarty
9. Youngs
10. Bigger
11. Seymour
12. Henshaw
13. Davies
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. George
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
19. Henderson
20. O'Brien
21. Webb
22. Daly
23. T'eo

 

[ncurd]

I think the point is:
You are never going to tour with less than 3,
They would appear to have a specific plan in mind and running 10s aren't a part of it (otherwise you'd have expected to see Russell or Ford in the squad).

So who do you pick? Not many options really and, while I'm not necessarily Biggar's biggest fan, I don't think he's quite the waste of time some appear to see him as.

A specific plan in mind is justification for players selection who you'd expect to start and sometimes the bench for forwards. However I really don't like it on the bench, I don't want a continuation of the plan in the backs, I want the bench to be able to change the plan in case its not working. Most back players unless injured should play a full 80mins.

Its a question of bench usage do you see it as injury cover? or a way of changing your tactics? I see it as more the latter these days.

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I should note that its been repeatedly remarked that Wales' (I'm saying this for coaching standpoint not the players) biggest problem when the chips are down is a lack of plan B when plan A has failed.

Now the squad selection apart from fly-half appears to give the option for Plan B but I'd like to see there as well.

 

[Disco_vinny]

Does Jared Payne go as 5th choice OC or 4th choice (arguably 5th) FB?

 

[MarkyH]

From the Guardian feed....

Despite having 16 players in the squad, some England fans are ticked off because Joe Launchbury, George Ford, Dylan Hartley and others have not been picked. The Irish are fed up because Munster and Ireland flanker Donnacha Ryan hasn’t been picked. The Scots are unhappy because they’ve only got two players in the squad and the Welsh are unhappy because Gatland has defied expectations by naming some players in his squad who are English, Irish and Scottish.

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Does Jared Payne go as 5th choice OC or 4th choice (arguably 5th) FB?

Shame he's gone over Ringrose, I think another steppy creative OC would've been a better choice. We have enough options at FB too.

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Does Jared Payne go as 5th choice OC or 4th choice (arguably 5th) FB?

Shame he's gone over Ringrose, I think another steppy creative OC would've been a better choice. We have enough options at FB too.

 

[valley commando]

I think that just furthers the question of "Why Biggar?". I suppose if/when Sexton gets croaked he'll be on the bench but still I can't imagine a single game circumstance where you'd bring him on over Farrell.

I mean unless he plays as poorly as he did against Italy but that was rarity.

You can't imagine a single game circumstance when you'd bring Biggar on instead of Farrell, maybe that's because your parochial or maybe your just bitter and twisted. Yes Biggar hasn't had his best season, however when he's on song he can control a game as well as Sexton, he just need's to get his head around what he is doing and not get gobby with the ref, in short he need's to shut the f#### up and play rugby.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Question what is wrong with Gatlands welsh players?
Owens --> Better than Hartley and Ford IMO.
AWJ --> More experianced than both Grays, he is better than Richie and has a lot more experiance v the AB than Johnny
Warburton -> IMO the obvious captain
Tipuric --> Just a bit better than Watson but has more experiance
Moriarty -> had a great 6N's and Tour v NZ, Watson better 7 but I think Gatland is planning on using Moriarty as an 8. Heaslip might feel unlucky but he only covers 8.
TF -> Obvious choice.
Webb --> Obvious choice
Bigger --> Questionable
Davies --> Ringrose unlucky but Davies has a huge amount of experiance both with lions and in NZ
North --> Obvious choice
Williams --> Obvious choice
Halfpenny --> Not sold on him this season but he is better than the remaining options

So Bigger is the only questionable choice IMO and both Russell and Ford failed to really shine in high pressure games this year, Bigger isn't good IMO but he knows what to expect in NZ, Russell and Ford both have yet to start v NZ let alone face them in NZ.

IMO Gatlands biggest question marks are Irish and England selections namely
Henderson over Ryan or Launchbury
Lawes over Ryan or Launchbury (I like Lawes TBF)
T'eo over Ringrose or a Scottish Centre
Payne over Ringrose.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I know you know you're in the minority on this one. However it was more on basing the reasoning like performances from 18 months and needing to be physical to beat the ABs over the players I'd prefer.

Now I like a dynamic game-plan I like fly-half who creates chances and I like a 2nd distributor at inside-center. If it were up to me I'd start Ford at fly-half or at least have him on the bench to replace Sexton with Farrell at 12. However I know that is not going to happen I had some small hope Ford would be on the bench for tests.

Biggar for is just so underwhelming as a fly-half solid defence but nothing special, okayish in attack but again does nothing special and very rarely looks like he's controlling the game doing just what he's been coached without any thought.

Perhaps.

But the way I see it, they went for combinations.
3 Scrumhalves: Murray, Webb and Youngs. That's 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG
3 Flyhalves: Sexton, Biggar and Farrel. That's also 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG.

Seems to me like Gats is looking at pairing the guys up in order to get a better performance.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Perhaps.

But the way I see it, they went for combinations.
3 Scrumhalves: Murray, Webb and Youngs. That's 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG
3 Flyhalves: Sexton, Biggar and Farrel. That's also 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG.

Seems to me like Gats is looking at pairing the guys up in order to get a better performance.

Definitely a possibility but Farrell hasn't started outside Youngs since Australia, and then only got 30 mins. Before that you're looking at a couple of games in the RWC, and they've never played together consistently, whether that be because of Care or Ford being in one of their places.

Basically just saying that I don't think they've ever built a pairing together.

 

[NickBD]

Perhaps.

But the way I see it, they went for combinations.
3 Scrumhalves: Murray, Webb and Youngs. That's 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG
3 Flyhalves: Sexton, Biggar and Farrel. That's also 1 IRE, 1 WAL & 1 ENG.

Seems to me like Gats is looking at pairing the guys up in order to get a better performance.

Agreed that last point although for me Farrell is going as starting 12 3rd choice 10 if needed. But yeah the starting 15, I think the team will have pairing all over the field out side of the back row. I think he'll go for the 2 Irish props with George at hooker maybe start Best for an all Irish front row with an all English 2nd row with Kruis/Itoje. Irish half backs and English centres with a majority Welsh back line. With only the back row having 3 different internationals in each position. I think that's the best way to go.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think previous experience of touring should get a player selected over an alternative - just because they're older doesn't mean they're any better. Should be solely based on their rugby ability.
Davies and Biggar are the only two I'd contest, don't think either should be going. AWJ is 50/50, especially if the rumours of him missing the start of the tour due to injury are true. But then Kruis is there on past credit (as he's only played one game, is it?, in months and months) so it's not like it's AWJ keeping out good players.
Some of the inevitable selections will be annoying though - Halfpenny deserves to tour, sure, but shouldn't be starting 15, but he will be.

 

[munstermuffin]

If it is a pure Welsh game like the 3rd test vs Aus. Then it will be start of the death of Lions. The brand has lost alot of faith and many see it as a commercial thing now and not as prestigious as in past.
I just hope they do give a good account. Personally there in 4 too many Munster men but I will be cheering Lions on. But don't think the squad named is going to beat All Blacks.
It doesn't seem to be a mentally strong squad either but maybe I'm wrong.