2017 British & Irish Lions Squad Announcement

[TRF_Olyy]

Wait, am I nostrodamus?!

Teo is good enough because Gatland is coach, I don't think anyone else would pick him.
Crash ball has fallen away in the NH in the last few years but Gats is still a fan. Who's a better crash ball player than Teo? Roberts is muck, Sam Hill hasn't progressed anywhere near as far as people expected, Manu is dead (or might as well be, RIP in peace), and I struggle to think of many other (qualified) options in the home nations.

 

[munstermuffin]

The thing people are missing is Te'o may flourish at this level in this structure.
Examples are like I think Owen Farrell wouldn't flourish as a 12 in Irish system.
Equally Ringrose in Lions system. It's a horses for courses mentality.
North will be 1 wing because it's based on size, physicality and defensive side. If it was on attacking alone Hogg Williams and Daly would probably be certs.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

North won't be bullied physically for sure but still has his bad moments defensively. If you were to pick the best back division in defense you'd maybe go :

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Williams ( on recent form)
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Nowell
15. Halfpenny

Hope we don't get that!

Re Te'o He's not going because of his ability as a 13... Versatility and ability to play 12 differently is part of it. He clearly doesn't stack up head to head against Ringrose as a 13 but I think he's ahead of Dunbar...

 

[BobbyM]

Yes, which if you think there's any comparison between Te'o and Burgess beyond being big lads who used to play league; then I stand by "Ignorant".
No-one who has watched both of them play rugby union (for more than just a couple of matches) can come to the conclusions you did, therefore the most obvious answer is that you hadn't.
The very fact that you think Te'o "has the capacity to go the way of Burgess" when it's already 2 years too late to do so, further implies ignorance.

Te'o has played circa 3800 minutes of rugby union [before being selecyed for the Lions], all in the centres - where he looks very comfortable and a natural fit; and looked comfortable at centre for England.
Burgess had played circa 1200 minutes of rugby union [before being selected for England] - about half of it in the centres - where he never looked anything but out of his depth at club level (whilst he at least looked like he had some ability as a flanker).

Now, if you still think that Te'o "has the capacity to" return to League with his tail between his legs having been an abject failure at Union, and refused to take on any coaching; then you're not only too late, but it's also fair to question your knowledge prior to this discussion - after all, it's a very common mis-conception.

To be clear, when I say Te'o has the capacity of going to way of Burgess, I'm meaning that he has the capacity to be shown to have a relative lack of experience, especially defensively, at the very top level. I'd hoped that was clear from the content of the D'Arcy article which was focused on that topic, but if not then apologies for that not being clear. In no way did I say that Te'o would "return to League with his tail between the legs having been an abject failure at Union", quite the contrary, I said he still had the capacity to be a top Union player. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, or at least jumping to conclusions, which seems presumptive and is over-stepping the mark. Added to this, statements like "No-one who has watched both of them play rugby union (for more than just a couple of matches) can come to the conclusions you did" are hugely presumptive, as I think has been indicated, to an extent, by other comments here.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

To be clear, when I say Te'o has the capacity of going to way of Burgess, I'm meaning that he has the capacity to be shown to have a relative lack of experience, especially defensively, at the very top level. I'd hoped that was clear from the content of the D'Arcy article which was focused on that topic, but if not then apologies for that not being clear. In no way did I say that Te'o would "return to League with his tail between the legs having been an abject failure at Union", quite the contrary, I said he still had the capacity to be a top Union player. You seem to be putting words in my mouth, or at least jumping to conclusions, which seems presumptive and is over-stepping the mark. Added to this, statements like "No-one who has watched both of them play rugby union (for more than just a couple of matches) can come to the conclusions you did" are hugely presumptive, as I think has been indicated, to an extent, by other comments here.

Defence is the best part of his game though. His weakness lays in attacking vision and footwork....and a kicking game.

 

[BobbyM]

Defence is the best part of his game though. His weakness lays in attacking vision and footwork....and a kicking game.

We can agree to disagree in that case then. From what I've seen he can pick a gap, or a person to turn into a gap, and does that successfully, making gameline meters often with his ball carries. I'm actually fairly happy with his offence, particularly at Leinster. Defensively though I don't feel he's been tested sufficiently. He's played what must be around 150 mins of international test rugby, with what say an hour of that against Fiji, off-colour Scotland and Italy. Each of those times it's been off the bench where he's up against a tired centre partnership less able to cause damage. I still stand by my belief that I am not able to conclude on his defensive strength on the basis of such limited experience. We can certainly agree he hasn't the kicking game of many 12's nowadays!

 

[MarkyH]

I don't really get the Te'o naysaying in general. I think a lot of it is influenced by people disliking the rules which allow him to be playing for England so quickly. He's been playing union since 2014 and in that time went down well at Leinster, started well for Worcester and hardly put a foot wrong for England. I'm not just talking about him scoring a try against France, he also got us territorially in the position to win that game against Wales. He's got physicality but much more than that. I don't see him as a particularly strange lions choice at all, even if it would have been nice if Ringrose could have made it.

This bit. I know you're not saying this, but I think its a common misconception. Ben T'eo was born to an English mother, hence residency rules did not apply to him.

- - - Updated - - -

We can agree to disagree in that case then. From what I've seen he can pick a gap, or a person to turn into a gap, and does that successfully, making gameline meters often with his ball carries. I'm actually fairly happy with his offence, particularly at Leinster. Defensively though I don't feel he's been tested sufficiently. He's played what must be around 150 mins of international test rugby, with what say an hour of that against Fiji, off-colour Scotland and Italy. Each of those times it's been off the bench where he's up against a tired centre partnership less able to cause damage. I still stand by my belief that I am not able to conclude on his defensive strength on the basis of such limited experience. We can certainly agree he hasn't the kicking game of many 12's nowadays!

Lions or not, Ben T'eo would be in the squad if it was England touring NZ too. He's probably played more minutes at IC then Slade, and Farrell doesn't play IC at his club and could well line up at IC as he does for England. Sometimes things don't matter as much. He shown an great attitude to learning the game, is a natural rugby athlete and he's intelligent enough in defence. Burgess was rushed in for England as was a massive failure. T'eo wasn't rushed in, he just wanted to play Union and because of his quality at Leinster he moved to Worcester to become eligible for selection (as he wasn't deemed exceptional circumstances)

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I think a lot of the teo hate is cause people evaluate him as an 80 minute center. At the international level coaches aren't picking him for that. He's being picked cause he can cover 12 and 13 and for the last 20 minutes run through people and disrupt the other teams offence. He has a very special skill set which makes him valuable to teams.

People need to stop looking at rugby in terms of 15 positions. There are at least 30 player types that should be considered.

 

[BobbyM]

I think a lot of the teo hate is cause people evaluate him as an 80 minute center. At the international level coaches aren't picking him for that. He's being picked cause he can cover 12 and 13 and for the last 20 minutes run through people and disrupt the other teams offence. He has a very special skill set which makes him valuable to teams.

People need to stop looking at rugby in terms of 15 positions. There are at least 30 player types that should be considered.

To be fair that's the prism I was looking at him through. No problem with him being a last 20 min battering ram, but he shouldn't be starting in the test team.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

To be fair that's the prism I was looking at him through. No problem with him being a last 20 min battering ram, but he shouldn't be starting in the test team.

I didn't think you were bashing him.

If he starts in a test match it would be rediculous. I see him coming off bench for on-test matches and not in the 23 for tests.

 

[Groundhog]

I hereby openly bash Ben Te'o. You can quote me on that skyboys.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I hereby openly bash Ben Te'o. You can quote me on that skyboys.

So you are openly saying you Bash Ben T'eo?

 

[Groundhog]

That sig quotation is a confused affair Tigs.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

That sig quotation is a confused affair Tigs.

Want do you mean?

Nice location BTW.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ben Teo has looked great as an impact player coming off the bench. He's very hard to stop close to the try line.
I can see Gatland using him off the bench.

 

[TheSaffycen]

It's all good looking at him as an bench option but a centre goes down injured early on.....
I think defensively he puts in massive hits, but I couldn't say if he's a great reader in defence. If our 13 goes down then you could have Teo and Henshaw together. Lots of hard running but I don't think it would scare the all blacks

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

2017 British & Irish Lions Squad Announcement

It's all good looking at him as an bench option but a centre goes down injured early on.....
I think defensively he puts in massive hits, but I couldn't say if he's a great reader in defence. If our 13 goes down then you could have Teo and Henshaw together. Lots of hard running but I don't think it would scare the all blacks

Seeing as Faz is going as a 10, he'll almost certainly have the 22 shirt. If Te'o really isn't trusted to go on early, then Faz can go on at 12.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It's all good looking at him as an bench option but a centre goes down injured early on.....
I think defensively he puts in massive hits, but I couldn't say if he's a great reader in defence. If our 13 goes down then you could have Teo and Henshaw together. Lots of hard running but I don't think it would scare the all blacks

Or... like every other tour in the professional era, you call in an injury replacement.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Or... like every other tour in the professional era, you call in an injury replacement.

You'd do well to do that in the 15th minute of a test match!

 

[Which Tyler]

Chances are we'll be starting with Henshaw and Joseph, Farrell on the bench.
It's possible that Gatland wasn't just stirring when he said that JJ was touch and go to even go on tour though - which would mean Farrell and Henshaw starting, and... TBH, probably Daly on the bench.

For Te'o to make the test 23, he basically needs to out JD2 JD2, and out Henshaw Henshaw. If he's doing that on tour, then he deserves to be in the 23 on merit. He's most likely to end up playing 12 for the dirt-trackers though, with either JD2 or Daly outside of him; or possibly Joseph if the entire coaching crew really are desperate for a collective brain transplant.