2017 British & Irish Lions Squad Announcement

[NickBD]

Your probably right. I wouldn't have taken Biggar but a positive is that Sam Davies will actually start 10 for Wales now.

Similar to Brown for England he just one of those players people don't like. Webb clearly should go on tour, Youngs is very lucky to be on the plane.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Similar to Brown for England he just one of those players people don't like. Webb clearly should go on tour, Youngs is very lucky to be on the plane.

Before the 6 Nations I had Youngs down in my squad but he didn't have the best tournament. I'm not sure what other options there are for 3rd choice scrum half. Care maybe, I don't like Gareth Davies or Laidlaw and then your looking at that young Scottish and Irish 9's but it's probably a bit too soon for them.

 

[welshglory]

I don't get the criticism of a lack of Scots. Apart from WP Nel whos recovering from a serious injury and in a position which is well covered, there are no clear cut Scottish players or even serious contenders who have missed out. Its all emotionally based.

 

[ncurd]

I don't get the criticism of a lack of Scots. Apart from WP Nel whos recovering from a serious injury and in a position which is well covered, there are no clear cut Scottish players or even serious contenders who have missed out. Its all emotionally based.

Ask yourself this question, if the player is not a serious contender or clear cut (of which there are about clear cut players 3 in the entire squad) so essentially a 3rd or 4th choice berth how many of Welsh, Irish or English versions missed out?

I can't think a single Welsh player
Ringrose for the Irish
Launchbury for the English (some would say Hartley and Ford)

 

[Goodey]

It feels like the Scots are needed to be comfortably better to be picked though. Clearly they are roughly on Wales' level from their results, but the players don't seem to get the same recognition. Why? Ultimately because of incumbency and the fact that the Scottish players who have performed compared to their Welsh counterparts weren't doing so 3-4 years ago. That grates because back then Gatland said he picked entirely on the Six Nations. Now that policy has changed.

Owens v Brown? Form
Jones v Gray? Past performance
Moriarty v Watson? Form
Biggar v Russell? Solidity/consistency
Davies v Jones? Past performance/fitness

When EVERY time a Scottish player loses out you feel like there must be some sort of status quo bias that they have to try extra hard to get over.

Think about the respective backlines. Scotland were said by many to have a better back line than Wales going into the tournament, and by all accounts pretty much played better. But the entire Welsh backline, save Scott Williams, got in while only 2 players from Scotland did. Can the only time Scottish players perform is when they're with other Scottish players? It seems hard to believe that hey are just inherently not as good.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I don't get the criticism of a lack of Scots. Apart from WP Nel whos recovering from a serious injury and in a position which is well covered, there are no clear cut Scottish players or even serious contenders who have missed out. Its all emotionally based.

Emotionally based? You mean it's all subjective? Thatbeing the case, you've definitely got to ask why most right calls went away from Scottish players.
Some of the arguments in general about selection thathttp://www.therugbyforum.com/ I've heard just don't add up. Like the fact that Moriarty is more versatile than Heaslip and that's why he got selected. We don't need any more versatility in the back-row:

Itoje, Henderson, Lawes, O'Mahony, CJ Stander, O'Brien, Warburton and Faletau already cover 6! Moriarty is another 6, not an 8, not really.

On a completely different note, they say that competition and being pushed for places is what makes players improve. Therefore I can now 100% understand why Ben youngs never improves, because no matter how bad he plays on some occasions, he gets selected for every England and lions squad! This is what happens when there's insufficient competition.

 

[munstermuffin]

Hopefully he listens but we've recommended Conor Murray takes the summer off.

 

[welshglory]

All the borderline calls for the Scots who missed out and Welsh that got picked i would have gone with Irish and English selections instead.

Apart from Moriarty, Biggar and maybe Halfpenny who i can see the clear merits of selecting, the Welsh contingent are fully deserving of their places.

 

[ncurd]

You hartless ********! Scrum half is one of few position where we have a nailed on starter because all the other players are demonstrably worse.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Hopefully he listens but we've recommended Conor Murray takes the summer off.

Is there a player alive who would follow that advice, however correct it may be?

 

[munstermuffin]

Is there a player alive who would follow that advice, however correct it may be?

Well given fact it may determine how long he is out and how vital it is then yes.

 

[General Melchett]

I don't get the criticism of a lack of Scots. Apart from WP Nel whos recovering from a serious injury and in a position which is well covered, there are no clear cut Scottish players or even serious contenders who have missed out. Its all emotionally based.

I think Nel and Huw Jones would have been included had they not been injured.

The facts don't lie in that the twelve Welsh players picked could only muster two 6N wins which suggests they are largely reputation/coach favoured picks as opposed to form. No Welsh sides made the ECC quarter finals so one can't point to domestic form either. People talk about Warburton being in great form but he was dominated by Hamish Watson who should be in instead of Tipuric in my view.

If the Silver David Brent wants to pick players like Biggar because of his defensive skills then fine but when it backfires and the Lions get pumped he had better be ready to take responsibility and accept the reality that this will be his last tour as head coach.

 

[MikeTheNative]

But the Irish back row got dominated by the Welsh when they played yet people are happy that Stander and O'Brien got picked. There was only one win between 2-5th so there's no point going round saying one player played better than another in single game. I do however think that Watson should have got in in front of Moriarty.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

You can't really blame him as he was only offered the chance of assisting Howley which is an insult considering that Townsend won the Pro12 in 2015 which is more than Howley has ever done. Townsend as head attack coach with Howley assisting would have made more sense but Gatland had one eye on maintaining his position in the Welsh dressing room. I think one or two Scots who might have been involved in the marginal calls have paid the price for this.

Blaming Townsend is not what I was getting at. When you have a room of coaches with strong opinions like Gatland, Farrell, Howley, Rowntree, Jenkins, Borthwick weighing up which players to take it doesn't take a genius to work out that there is not one of those who are likely to argue for a Scottish player. 3 Welsh coaches, 1 current England coach, 2 ex England coaches; one of whom is now the Ireland defence coach. Regardless of what Gatland says there is bound to be unconscious bias because they see those players they selected in training.

Jim Telfer arguing that Gatland should have brought Vern Cotter in to the selection meeting at least to give his voice for the Scottish players. But why, unless Cotter was selected as a coach?

 

[General Melchett]

But the Irish back row got dominated by the Welsh when they played yet people are happy that Stander and O'Brien got picked. There was only one win between 2-5th so there's no point going round saying one player played better than another in single game. I do however think that Watson should have got in in front of Moriarty.

Not sure about SOB but Stander's inclusion is absolutely justified as he had an outstanding campaign and was one of the players of the tournament. SOB is probably a reputation pick and the fact that he toured last time helps.

Craig Joubert must be delighted that Gatland has taken some of the heat off him

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Ask McCaw how much he rates SOB.

 

[General Melchett]

Blaming Townsend is not what I was getting at. When you have a room of coaches with strong opinions like Gatland, Farrell, Howley, Rowntree, Jenkins, Borthwick weighing up which players to take it doesn't take a genius to work out that there is not one of those who are likely to argue for a Scottish player. 3 Welsh coaches, 1 current England coach, 2 ex England coaches; one of whom is now the Ireland defence coach. Regardless of what Gatland says there is bound to be unconscious bias because they see those players they selected in training.

Jim Telfer arguing that Gatland should have brought Vern Cotter in to the selection meeting at least to give his voice for the Scottish players. But why, unless Cotter was selected as a coach?

It's a tricky one. On one hand you want to give the head coach the freedom to assemble the coaching team that he feels will maximise the chances of winning the series but on the other hand we have the situation we find ourselves in when one nation has zero representation at the selection meetings while the head coach has retained the support of his right hand man and senior players. Maybe in future the Lions committee should play a more active role in making sure that representation is fair. I think the flaw this time around is Gatland's insistence that Howley be head attack coach. Sure let him tour as an assistant but why did he have to be head attack coach? Maybe the Lions committee should have insisted that a possible a future head coach like Townsend get a senior role with succession planning in mind.

 

[ncurd]

Right so we are agreed though when we loose this tour its all Howley's fault right? We need to make sure we have a scape goat properly lined up.

On the coaches debate I think the head coach and 3 assitant coaches (likely attack, defence forwards or backs) MUST be representative of all nations. The head coach must get the other 3 in place before any other appointments. Its the only way to get proper representation.

It should be noted whilst we are talking about marginal calls if you change 2-3 Welsh to Scottish how much it looks more right in balance based on various teams form.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Not sure about SOB but Stander's inclusion is absolutely justified as he had an outstanding campaign and was one of the players of the tournament. SOB is probably a reputation pick and the fact that he toured last time helps.

Craig Joubert must be delighted that Gatland has taken some of the heat off him

I'm fine with both them being picked I was just using that as an example for basing selection battles off one game, Stander would be my starting 6.

 

[General Melchett]

Right so we are agreed though when we loose this tour its all Howley's fault right? We need to make sure we have a scape goat properly lined up.

On the coaches debate I think the head coach and 3 assitant coaches (likely attack, defence forwards or backs) MUST be representative of all nations. The head coach must get the other 3 in place before any other appointments. Its the only way to get proper representation.

It should be noted whilst we are talking about marginal calls if you change 2-3 Welsh to Scottish how much it looks more right in balance based on various teams form.

The scape goat has indeed been lined up.

Forget Warrenball or Gatlandball. We are about to see Howlerball