[2016 Rugby Championship] South Africa v New Zealand (08/10/2016)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ok, so I might be pushing my luck here - and I know you refer specifically to emulating NZ, but Eddie Jones learned the way the Boks play and took that knowledge to Japan. He trained them to beat the Boks, not by taking us on at the breakdown, or in the set pieces. He knew Japan could never beat the Boks head on, so in his inimitable and wily way, he showed them another way.. and stunned the world.

Just before England left to pay Australia, Eddie Jones was interviewed on Sky Sport, and was asked what his plans were for this English team. He looked at the camera with a wry smile and told the presenter to ask him what his plans were for New Zealand. The presenter bit, and Eddie told him to make the All Blacks the second best rugby team in the world.

I'm not suggesting we copy NZ as in we play the same style but there are lessons to be learned. The way they structure their rugby, how they use their players, the emphasis on speed and fitness and the complete removal of ANY slow and fat players. There is no dead weight in the NZ squad at all. Whilst it was deemed acceptable elsewhere in the world to have a front 3 that were lumbering blobs with no handling skills and the agility of a shopping trolley, NZ decided that was too much of a burden for the rest of the team to bear in the loose. As a result NZ tight 3 are still good in the set piece but can run rings around a traditional tight 3 and have good handling skills. This has given the team more options, more dynamism for maybe a tiny loss of power in the scrum. Clearly the benefits outweigh the losses a lot. NH rugby looks at that and says the loss of scrum power is too much yet when have NZ really been under any real pressure in games because of a weakness in the scrum?

NZ have learned the value of fast ball, of support lines, hitting space etc. They aren't fundamentally doing anything magic but they refuse to abandon the basics for anyone on the pitch. Fundamentally it's the attitude, they have not been content to settle with how things are done and now are reaping the benefits. All those sides who said they had nothing to gain by emulating NZ? They are being thrashed with scores getting up to 50 each game. The question is not whether people need to listen and take heed with what NZ are doing, it's how many thrashing do they need to endure before they abandon ideas that don't work. It's almost like trying to change the mentality of WW1 generals at times. I notice since England whitewashed Australia playing a 10 at 12 has become more popular.

 

[nik]

NZ at the moment have a good structures in place at all levels for players to improve and excel. Player exodus is a major issue though. That's what will eat away our depth if NZ rugby cannot continue to compete with NH clubs. Currently theres good enough talent to replace departing players. The balance is right. If the balance shifts, then we may see a problem.

Also have to agree, it's not about how good NZ is, it's more about how poor Australia and South Africa have been this year. At the international level and super rugby. They also face similar issues with regards to player exodus, the balance is not right there, plus a lot more issues with their respective unions.

Internationals coming up will provide us with some good answers. How much has Australia iMproved, we will find out in a fortnight. Can NZ and England go unbeaten this year? Will Ireland be ABs greatest test this year? How South Africa will approach the tour? Intriguing times ahead lol.

 

[Ospervat]

Not rubbish. There have been years where they have not been the best side. But from generation to generation they have been the most consistent team in history. 77% winning record.

SA unbeaten in a test series away and at home from 1903 - 1956
Don't think your precious chokers will get even close to that.

 

[Ospervat]

Basically what Jones is going to do is copy what the All Blacks are doing, then claim he's not.

He goes on to talk about getting the players fitter, which is essentially where the AB's have everyone beaten. Make sure the teams fit for the whole 80 minutes, instead of dropping off in the last 15 minutes and making sure the bench is quality and lose nothing when coming on.

How do you know what Jones is going to do?
I think you're over estimating your ability to see into the future.
Two things are guaranteed in life, death and taxes - and right now you are dying on this forum.

 

[Facile]

SA unbeaten in a test series away and at home from 1903 - 1956
Don't think your precious chokers will get even close to that.

The SA record is lopsided because of your belligerent racist history. It's very hard to take any Spring Bok rugby seriously prior to 1995 and doesn't deserve much credit if any.

 

[Larksea]

IMO The springboks don't need to adopt running rugby to beat the All Blacks.

If I were springbok coach my gameplan vs. All Blacks would revolve around. Just the basics, long version would be novel like!

#1 priority, improved fitness.80+ minute effort required. Starts at super rugby level. Even place a bigger emphasis on fitness for selection. Get the message through to players.
- First Rate defense in general, better rushing defense requires higher levels of fitness. They clearly are not there, gave the AB's too much space.
- Smart tactical kicking. It was too poor and inconsistent against the AB's. Not just that but before a good kick you need to draw up 2 of the 4 key ball returners (Barrett, Smith, Dagg, naholo - I dont include Savea, generally hes not so much of a threat returning kicks, Savea would actually be the primary target for kicks, if its his ball and he has to retreat to get it, that's a good kick, Naholo & NMS are good targets too but they require pressure becuase if they do get space they have more potential to exploit it). and 1 of the two players drawn up needs to be Barrett or Smith. Not just keeping kicks in play but with this tactic the AB's will take less quick throws.
- Genuinely chase and pressure the kicks in an organized and meticulous manor.
- Forwards pushing the advantage line in organized channels, keep up with support players bound to drive over the advantage line. Target areas away from defenders like Kaino, Cane or Tuipulotu who tend to stop stuff dead in its tracks.. or look to commit them and just secure ball then look to push over the line with them tied up at the previous Ruck. Quick ball against splintered defense goes to faster backs right at the ruck or short on the open side to get past the line through gaps to exploit space.
- Pressure the lineouts, traditionally the bokke have been their best against the All Blacks when they pressure the lineout. 2009's success for the bokke was basically all about lineouts. no excuses that is an area SA need to better the All Blacks at.
- The other traditional match winning area for the Bokke is, you guessed it. Intercepts... Requires an organized defense as mentioned earlier. Backs that are well drilled in swooping in on the passes and loose forwards/locks who are good at providing cover defense.
- Obvious but have to tick this box, penalties and drop goals. Anything within 50-55m has to become 3 points. Attempt both drop goals and dummy/fake drop goals to create gaps.

IMO this combination of tactics is totally valid for SA to use. I don't believe its a case of NZ just being so good now these tactics aren't valid. I think SA have just lost their edge in some of these key areas through the loss of some key players, key coaching & selection choices.

I honestly without bias and with no intention of disrespect think the idea of SA matching or beating the All Blacks on an even keel at running rugby is basically near on zero. It would require a total change in philosophy and start from school/u20 Rugby & coaching/training at that level and breed it all the way through. Not some half arsed effort made valid because one super rugby team does ok using it...

 

[Brigantine]

Well this series was a new high watermark of dominance for the ABs...

This past few years has been so thoroughly dominant it's reminding me of the Aussie cricket team through the 90s and early 00s when they won 3 WCs in a row - awesome side, but even as an Aussie growing up I kinda lost interest in cricket because it just wasn't ever a contest and I kinda wonder if it's getting a little boring for Kiwis now.

As an AB fan through this season... Absolutely not. Watching an AB's game when you don't know what the final score is, is still just as exciting.

In NZ vs Arg, Arg got a try in the first 3 minutes. Even at the 50 minute mark we were only ahead 24-22.
In NZ vs SA, SA got the first try, and at half time we were only 15-10.
Even in this game, at 59' SA were still 15-22.


In your head, you know the AB's have a strong bench and are the favourites in the last 20 mins - but when the AB's are under pressure and you're captivated by the moment, the heart won't believe it. Also being used to high scoring games, and not used to losing, unless the AB's are 14 points ahead they're still in danger.

It's like the first 60 minutes are a battle of attrition, where the scores are still normal but you're watching for signs of fatigue. Then one team loses the battle of attrition, runs out of steam, and the last 20 are a victory lap running up the score. The final score disguises how close the attrition was. In Arg vs NZ, the AB's actually lost the attrition, started subbing at 47' and only held on thanks to a 29 point lead up to that point, and an unhealthy dose of cheating (which we got 2 yellow cards for).

The battle of attrition is about more than just the fitness you have going into the game. When you're under pressure, when your confidence falters, you burn through it faster.

 

[smartcooky]

Eddie is a great coach and an arch provocateur, but it's instructive that his new look and all NH dominating England side, whilst very impressive in Australia during the middle of the Super Rugby season series, didn't ever come to being anywhere as close to as dominating as the All Blacks in their matches against us and everyone else. The wallabies put 40 points on England in that last last test and generally scored a few tries, whilst against the ABs we got nowhere so I wonder if England can really keep up with the ABs.

So far we're all assuming they'll give the ABs a fight because they beat the Wallabies, but frankly the Wallabies have been abysmal this year, so I suspect people may be getting ahead of themselves. That said, it wouldn't be the first time Eddie talked up beating the ABs only to end up with egg on his face.

The thing about provocatuers is that it takes two to tango, and Shag will not be dancing. We've all seen how Eddie was able to wind up Michael Cheika, and how Cheika chucked his toys when Ted made a comment about the Wallabies. You'll never get that from Shag. He will remain unflustered and dismissive without being rude. The NZ media learned a long time ago that he simply doesn't respond and that they were wasting their time and effort. you simply cannot get a rise out of him.

If Eddie tries playing mind games with Shag, he will find himself in an echo-chamber.

 

[Ospervat]

The SA record is lopsided because of your belligerent racist history. It's very hard to take any Spring Bok rugby seriously prior to 1995 and doesn't deserve much credit if any.

Very weak. I was hoping there was more substance to your intellect

BTW - Until the pro era SA had a positive win-loss ratio against every test playing nation including New Zealand.

Troll just got owned.

 

[KiaKaha]

Well, you either live in the past, or accept that the bias and nonsense you issued out to touring teams is actually recognised. From undisciplined thuggish behaviour, biased refs, and restrictions on who we could include in our touring party.

An inconvenient truth huh.

Yes, for a while, you had some reasonable teams, Cravens mob out here in NZ were good, but lets not forget after we had sent a plethora of young men to the other side of the world to fight a few world wars.

You have never been gracious winners or losers, until recently when its been folly to argue otherwise.

 

[smartcooky]

Well, you either live in the past, or accept that the bias and nonsense you issued out to touring teams is actually recognised. From undisciplined thuggish behaviour, biased refs, and restrictions on who we could include in our touring party.

An inconvenient truth huh.

Yes, for a while, you had some reasonable teams, Cravens mob out here in NZ were good, but lets not forget after we had sent a plethora of young men to the other side of the world to fight a few world wars.

You have never been gracious winners or losers, until recently when its been folly to argue otherwise.

You will go a long way to find a more crooked referee than Gert Bezuidenhout. In 1976 he literally cost the All Blacks a series that should have been drawn with an utterly and obviously biased performance in the fourth and final test. Years later, when he was asked about why his refereeing had been so one-sided, he replied "...listen boys, you can go back to your home. You don't have to live here!"

Piet Robbertse and Bert Woolley were almost as bad... crooked as a dog's hind leg.

 

[The Jones Boy]

IMO The springboks don't need to adopt running rugby to beat the All Blacks.

If I were springbok coach my gameplan vs. All Blacks would revolve around. Just the basics, long version would be novel like!

#1 priority, improved fitness.80+ minute effort required. Starts at super rugby level. Even place a bigger emphasis on fitness for selection. Get the message through to players.
- First Rate defense in general, better rushing defense requires higher levels of fitness. They clearly are not there, gave the AB's too much space.
- Smart tactical kicking. It was too poor and inconsistent against the AB's. Not just that but before a good kick you need to draw up 2 of the 4 key ball returners (Barrett, Smith, Dagg, naholo - I dont include Savea, generally hes not so much of a threat returning kicks, Savea would actually be the primary target for kicks, if its his ball and he has to retreat to get it, that's a good kick, Naholo & NMS are good targets too but they require pressure becuase if they do get space they have more potential to exploit it). and 1 of the two players drawn up needs to be Barrett or Smith. Not just keeping kicks in play but with this tactic the AB's will take less quick throws.
- Genuinely chase and pressure the kicks in an organized and meticulous manor.
- Forwards pushing the advantage line in organized channels, keep up with support players bound to drive over the advantage line. Target areas away from defenders like Kaino, Cane or Tuipulotu who tend to stop stuff dead in its tracks.. or look to commit them and just secure ball then look to push over the line with them tied up at the previous Ruck. Quick ball against splintered defense goes to faster backs right at the ruck or short on the open side to get past the line through gaps to exploit space.
- Pressure the lineouts, traditionally the bokke have been their best against the All Blacks when they pressure the lineout. 2009's success for the bokke was basically all about lineouts. no excuses that is an area SA need to better the All Blacks at.
- The other traditional match winning area for the Bokke is, you guessed it. Intercepts... Requires an organized defense as mentioned earlier. Backs that are well drilled in swooping in on the passes and loose forwards/locks who are good at providing cover defense.
- Obvious but have to tick this box, penalties and drop goals. Anything within 50-55m has to become 3 points. Attempt both drop goals and dummy/fake drop goals to create gaps.

IMO this combination of tactics is totally valid for SA to use. I don't believe its a case of NZ just being so good now these tactics aren't valid. I think SA have just lost their edge in some of these key areas through the loss of some key players, key coaching & selection choices.

I honestly without bias and with no intention of disrespect think the idea of SA matching or beating the All Blacks on an even keel at running rugby is basically near on zero. It would require a total change in philosophy and start from school/u20 Rugby & coaching/training at that level and breed it all the way through. Not some half arsed effort made valid because one super rugby team does ok using it...

Once again you are on the money.
South Africa and England have not just been good, they have been bloody good at stifling the opposition and kicking them out of the game on the scoreboard. England and SouthAfrica have won world cups using this format. It is historically very effective and it can be again if the players are up to the task and England are heading that way already. In time with a different coaching staff South Africa will be there as well.
The AB's are not that far ahead.
All it takes is a fit motivated opposition who know how to close a running game down.
Then the score may well be tight to the end of the game and the kickers will be the big question. If that happen then the likes of Farrell has a significant advantage over Barrett in the success percentages.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You will go a long way to find a more crooked referee than Gert Bezuidenhout. In 1976 he literally cost the All Blacks a series that should have been drawn with an utterly and obviously biased performance in the fourth and final test. Years later, when he was asked about why his refereeing had been so one-sided, he replied "...listen boys, you can go back to your home. You don't have to live here!"

Piet Robbertse and Bert Woolley were almost as bad... crooked as a dog's hind leg.

Every nation has a guy like that... If you ask any Saffa who they'd want killed by firing squad, 2 names will frequently pop up: Paddy O'Brien, and Stuart Dickenson. But that is a discussion for another thread...

 

[smartcooky]

Every nation has a guy like that... If you ask any Saffa who they'd want killed by firing squad, 2 names will frequently pop up: Paddy O'Brien, and Stuart Dickenson. But that is a discussion for another thread...

Oh, we had a party at our house the day Stuart Dickinson retired. We put up a big sign over the door that said...

"NICE TO SEE YOUR BACK"

 

[TRF_heineken]

Oh, we had a party at our house the day Stuart Dickinson retired. We put up a big sign over the door that said...

"NICE TO SEE YOUR BACK"

Yeah, I think he takes the cake as the most hated referee of all time by most nations...

 

[TheOvalBall]

Clive Norling beats any referee past and present. Giving a penalty just so NZ could win and give it to SA.

 

[Sker]

Hold on, the name Stuart Dickinson sends shivers down my spine but I can't for the life of me remember why.

Care to refresh my memory? He was an Aussie ref no?

 

[Ospervat]

Clive Norling beats any referee past and present. Giving a penalty just so NZ could win and give it to SA.

Vaguely remember this - something to do with a penalty that should have been a free kick about 15 minutes into "injury time"

Ah - those were the days.

 

[Ospervat]

Well, you either live in the past, or accept that the bias and nonsense you issued out to touring teams is actually recognised. From undisciplined thuggish behaviour, biased refs, and restrictions on who we could include in our touring party.

An inconvenient truth huh.

Yes, for a while, you had some reasonable teams, Cravens mob out here in NZ were good, but lets not forget after we had sent a plethora of young men to the other side of the world to fight a few world wars.

You have never been gracious winners or losers, until recently when its been folly to argue otherwise.

I won't disagree with the sentiment of what you're saying however the results are in and the record stands. The how, where and why is irrelevant.

In the same way that in 20, 50,100 years from now the recorded results of this era will be all that remains. The current affirmative action / political issues in SA rugby will be irrelevant when interpreting the win/loss ratio's. Another inconvenient truth but this time on the other foot.

For what it's worth SA were also part of the commonwealth and they too sent a plethora of young men to the other side of the world to fight a few world wars.

As for the grace with which SA win or lose - that is your subjective opinion.

 

[TheOvalBall]

The worst thing South Africa can do is go away from their strengths. Forward dominance and power rugby is synonymous with the Boks. They just need a better working backline. And none of this no.12 crashball nonsense. Also, no forwards in the backline.