[2016 Rugby Championship] South Africa v New Zealand (08/10/2016)

[Ragey Erasmus]

On the one hand it is boring knowing the Kiwis are going to win and win big every single time but on the other hand they play unbelievable rugby. The question is now not if they will win or even by how much, it's more how far off 50 they will finish. Kiwis are not superhuman and many of these youngsters have been beaten at U20 level yet they step up big time for the seniors. People say we shouldn't copy the Kiwis and everyone should work out their own way but I disagree, we should all copy whatever the Kiwis do because it clearly is the best system. Once you get to a similar pegging then you can tailor it to your own style but at the moments the Kiwis are just leagues ahead of everyone else. To not copy and learn from this is stupid more than anything else.

 

[Facile]

A mix of tough rural colonialism and farming, the Maori and their culture and with the close proximity and high immigration from the Pacific Islands paired with the fact rugby is the National sport played in all public schools and from all classes/backgrounds has turned New Zealand into a rugby machine, that doesn't look like breaking down, ever. It's simply in the culture now. All other countries can do is attempt to catch up, but consistently being on the same level probably isn't going to happen.

- - - Updated - - -

On the one hand it is boring knowing the Kiwis are going to win and win big every single time but on the other hand they play unbelievable rugby. The question is now not if they will win or even by how much, it's more how far off 50 they will finish. Kiwis are not superhuman and many of these youngsters have been beaten at U20 level yet they step up big time for the seniors. People say we shouldn't copy the Kiwis and everyone should work out their own way but I disagree, we should all copy whatever the Kiwis do because it clearly is the best system. Once you get to a similar pegging then you can tailor it to your own style but at the moments the Kiwis are just leagues ahead of everyone else. To not copy and learn from this is stupid more than anything else.

I guess Eddie Jones is stupid then.


England coach Eddie Jones has insisted trying to play New Zealand at their own game is the wrong way to topple the All Blacks from the summit of world rugby union.

Reigning world champions New Zealand won a record-equalling 17th Test when they thrashed South Africa 57-15 in Durban on Saturday to finish a perfect campaign in the southern hemisphere Rugby Championship.

If they beat Australia at Auckland's Eden Park -- where they haven't lost since 1994 -- on October 22, the rampant All Blacks will set a new outright world record of 18 straight wins by a top-tier nation.

England, however, have won all nine of their Tests since Australian boss Jones was appointed following their first-round exit when staging last year's World Cup -- a sequence that includes a Six Nations Grand Slam and a 3-0 series win in the former Wallaby boss's native Australia.

"The thing that really annoys me about rugby at the moment, and I've got to say it, is that everyone tries to copy New Zealand," Jones, never shy of trying to ruffle an opposition team told Britain's Sunday Times.

"Why? Come up with your own game. Everything we are doing now is about coming up with a game to beat New Zealand and to make them uncomfortable," explained Jones, who has guided England to second in the world rankings.

"You can and hopefully will see that by 2018.

"One of the great opportunities we have here in England is that we can rebrand rugby, we can develop a new style that gives people an opportunity to play the game differently from New Zealand.

"That is exciting me more than anything," added Jones, with England not due to play the All Blacks again until 2018.

England's lone world ***le came in 2003 when they beat an Australia side coached by Jones in the final.

Asked if England could win the next World Cup, in Japan in 2019, a bullish Jones replied: "Definitely. We've got some changes we need to make but I think the timing is right."

Jones, criticised by coaches at several English Premiership clubs for a recent gruelling training camp in Brighton that ruled the likes of Bath wing Anthony Watson (fractured jaw) and Wasps flanker Sam Jones (broken leg) out of the upcoming end of year Tests at Twickenham, was happy with the quality of players at his disposal.

He was particularly impressed by Bath and England No 10 George Ford, saying: "I've never seen a more talented fly-half. He can see space, some of the things he did in training were quite remarkable."

When it was put to Jones that he appeared to be suggesting that Ford had more ability than Australia great Mark Ella, fly-half in the Wallabies' celebrated 1984 Grand Slam-winning tour of Britain and Ireland, Jones replied: "Well he's not better than Mark Ella but he's building nicely. If Ella played today, he'd set the game on fire."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-rugby-union-england-jones-idUKKCN12A0GL

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/85144511/eddie-jones-says-teams-shouldnt-copy-the-all-blacks

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/sport/rugby-union/jones-warns-against-copying-all-blacks/ar-BBxd5wY?li=BBqdg4K

 

[RoosTah]

Eddie is a great coach and an arch provocateur, but it's instructive that his new look and all NH dominating England side, whilst very impressive in Australia during the middle of the Super Rugby season series, didn't ever come to being anywhere as close to as dominating as the All Blacks in their matches against us and everyone else. The wallabies put 40 points on England in that last last test and generally scored a few tries, whilst against the ABs we got nowhere so I wonder if England can really keep up with the ABs.

So far we're all assuming they'll give the ABs a fight because they beat the Wallabies, but frankly the Wallabies have been abysmal this year, so I suspect people may be getting ahead of themselves. That said, it wouldn't be the first time Eddie talked up beating the ABs only to end up with egg on his face.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

A mix of tough rural colonialism and farming, the Maori and their culture and with the close proximity and high immigration from the Pacific Islands paired with the fact rugby is the National sport played in all public schools and from all classes/backgrounds has turned New Zealand into a rugby machine, that doesn't look like breaking down, ever. It's simply in the culture now. All other countries can do is attempt to catch up, but consistently being on the same level probably isn't going to happen.

That looks convincing when compared to countries like France or England, but not for South Africa. Some countries will catch up on those advantages NZ has now, eventually. Might take decades, but it's a matter of time. It's not that NZ will become worse, it's that the rest will improve. Sports history is plagued with such examples.

When people talk about NZ nowadays i can't help thinking of Uruguay's football team in the 1920s-1930s. They won everything, home and away. People were calling Uruguay a football pitch with people living in it.

On top of that, New Zealand will have to face, eventually, two serious problems:

1) Their players getting better offers from abroad (not just them, granted)
2) Small population

South Africa is having a bad year and NZ and amazing one. Let's not extrapolate that too far. Don't forget just 1 year ago a mediocre RSA side lost to what many call "the best team in history" by 2 points on a WC semi final. That's not too bad.

 

[Facile]

That looks convincing when compared to countries like France or England, but not for South Africa. Some countries will catch up on those advantages NZ has now, eventually. Might take decades, but it's a matter of time. It's not that NZ will become worse, it's that the rest will improve. Sports history is plagued with such examples.

When people talk about NZ nowadays i can't help thinking of Uruguay's football team in the 1920s-1930s. They won everything, home and away. People were calling Uruguay a football pitch with people living in it.

On top of that, New Zealand will have to face, eventually, two serious problems:

1) Their players getting better offers from abroad (not just them, granted)
2) Small population

South Africa is having a bad year and NZ and amazing one. Let's not extrapolate that too far. Don't forget just 1 year ago a mediocre RSA side lost to what many call "the best team in history" by 2 points on a WC semi final. That's not too bad.

Nothing is forever. I was just pointing out huge advantages they have culturally over most nations. South Africa have always had a great mix of native Africans and tough Boers and colonialism and will eventually bounce back once they reform. I just think these years of regression and player exodus will effect them for a very long time though, meanwhile the All Blacks will continue improving to they're completely out off sight.

I'm not sold on the NZ player exodus, the All Blacks is a rapidly growing brand that is now globally recognized and the top All Blacks are making 7 figures + sponsorship deals that are close to what they would be offered in Europe anyway without the hefty tax. Obviously fringe All Blacks and guys coming towards the end of their careers will be looking at a pay days in Europe. But the NZRU is always going to retain their best players. The prestige and integrity that comes with being a star All Black is priceless for a lot of Kiwi's. They have a lot more integrity than most Soccer players.

The population is also growing at a rapid rate as well. NZ only had a population of just 3 million 15 years ago, that has now grown to 4.5m. Large numbers of Pacific Islanders have contributed to that and the majority of them play rugby.

 

[petite]

@Larksea (don't feel like quoting your entire post but addressing the locks)

New Zealand's tight five (especially their locks) are really what separates them from other teams

New Zealand are the one team that have decided to put athletes in the tight five and have had great success, and other countries have just continued to put big boys there (not 100%; there are more and more athletic locks, but front rowers still remain large and immobile) and new zealand have made them pay for it

you mean herreras?? :lol:

 

[Facile]

By the sounds of it in 2018. Eddie Jones wants to have his team as fit as possible and a bench just as good as the starters. Which is essentially what the All Blacks have and this is the way to beating them. Keeping with them the whole match, being as fit as them and having quality replacements to not drop the intensity and keep going until the final whistle. He's on the right path.

 

[The Jones Boy]

That looks convincing when compared to countries like France or England, but not for South Africa. Some countries will catch up on those advantages NZ has now, eventually. Might take decades, but it's a matter of time. It's not that NZ will become worse, it's that the rest will improve. Sports history is plagued with such examples.

When people talk about NZ nowadays i can't help thinking of Uruguay's football team in the 1920s-1930s. They won everything, home and away. People were calling Uruguay a football pitch with people living in it.

On top of that, New Zealand will have to face, eventually, two serious problems:

1) Their players getting better offers from abroad (not just them, granted)
2) Small population

South Africa is having a bad year and NZ and amazing one. Let's not extrapolate that too far. Don't forget just 1 year ago a mediocre RSA side lost to what many call "the best team in history" by 2 points on a WC semi final. That's not too bad.

You are of course correct.
There are some people on here saying it won't last and it won't so we better enjoy it while it lasts.
The AB's are playing sensational attacking rugby and it is a pure joy to watch the supporting runners and the mesmerising off loads that go to hand more often than spilling elsewhere.... but in time other teams will suss out how to close the game down and or bring their own higher levels of intensity and attack.
It's the natural progression.
Keeping our players has always been a problem, that is unlikely to change.
There is a lot of mana in wearing the black jersey but the lure of mega money is a hard one to fight against. Particularly for those blokes on the fringes of a regular squad spot.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

You are of course correct.
There are some people on here saying it won't last and it won't so we better enjoy it while it lasts.
The AB's are playing sensational attacking rugby and it is a pure joy to watch the supporting runners and the mesmerising off loads that go to hand more often than spilling elsewhere.... but in time other teams will suss out how to close the game down and or bring their own higher levels of intensity and attack.
It's the natural progression.
Keeping our players has always been a problem, that is unlikely to change.
There is a lot of mana in wearing the black jersey but the lure of mega money is a hard one to fight against. Particularly for those blokes on the fringes of a regular squad spot.

do you think the other teams are actually going to adapt? south africa is convinced that playing "springbok rugby" with immobile front rowers is more important than adapting their game to play with the all blacks

there is a lot of stubbornness in the backrooms of established rugby nations

 

[The Jones Boy]

There is also a lot of injury and other issues that they have to face but nothing lasts forever.
Alistair Coetzee will not last forever.
The Bokke will overcome.
It may not be this season or possibly next but they will be back. Too many quality players coming through and sooner or later the quota nonsense will have to stop.

 

[Facile]

You are of course correct.
There are some people on here saying it won't last and it won't so we better enjoy it while it lasts.
The AB's are playing sensational attacking rugby and it is a pure joy to watch the supporting runners and the mesmerising off loads that go to hand more often than spilling elsewhere.... but in time other teams will suss out how to close the game down and or bring their own higher levels of intensity and attack.
It's the natural progression.
Keeping our players has always been a problem, that is unlikely to change.
There is a lot of mana in wearing the black jersey but the lure of mega money is a hard one to fight against. Particularly for those blokes on the fringes of a regular squad spot.

The All Blacks have been the most dominant side since 1905 and are only showing signs of becoming even more dominant.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Eddie is a great coach and an arch provocateur, but it's instructive that his new look and all NH dominating England side, whilst very impressive in Australia during the middle of the Super Rugby season series, didn't ever come to being anywhere as close to as dominating as the All Blacks in their matches against us and everyone else. The wallabies put 40 points on England in that last last test and generally scored a few tries, whilst against the ABs we got nowhere so I wonder if England can really keep up with the ABs.

So far we're all assuming they'll give the ABs a fight because they beat the Wallabies, but frankly the Wallabies have been abysmal this year, so I suspect people may be getting ahead of themselves. That said, it wouldn't be the first time Eddie talked up beating the ABs only to end up with egg on his face.

It's true Eddie does have previous but now he has his hands on bigger resources and a much bigger player base.

 

[Ospervat]

The All Blacks have been the most dominant side since 1905 and are only showing signs of becoming even more dominant.

Rubbish.

 

[Ospervat]

do you think the other teams are actually going to adapt? south africa is convinced that playing "springbok rugby" with immobile front rowers is more important than adapting their game to play with the all blacks

there is a lot of stubbornness in the backrooms of established rugby nations

The SA problem really starts at the top - politicians, management, administrators and coaches.

The running game, holding possession and exploiting weak defenders is the key to winning in the the future not kicking away your possession and hoping your opposition makes a disciplinary mistake so you can slot 3 points.

The AB's are playing great rugby however the poor quality of their opposition makes them look better than they are. Skilled, intelligent opposition would exploit forced errors and find them wanting in defence.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

The SA problem really starts at the top - politicians, management, administrators and coaches.

The running game, holding possession and exploiting weak defenders is the key to winning in the the future not kicking away your possession and hoping your opposition makes a disciplinary mistake so you can slot 3 points.

The AB's are playing great rugby however the poor quality of their opposition makes them look better than they are. Skilled, intelligent opposition would exploit forced errors and find them wanting in defence.

i agree with you about how they need to play a running game but they can't continue to select forwards that are so outclassed athletically by the all blacks

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I guess Eddie Jones is stupid then.


England coach Eddie Jones has insisted trying to play New Zealand at their own game is the wrong way to topple the All Blacks from the summit of world rugby union.

Yet nobody has shown that any other way works. What are the facts? NZ are dominating every single team on the planet, the games aren't even close. It's all very well saying we have to play differently and not emulate NZ but where has anyone had success with this? They haven't, the odd win is all that people have hoped to achieve. Our U20's HAVE copied NZ and you know what? In recent years it has paid off and now England U20's are consistantly beating NZ U20's. The way to beat NZ is to copy what they are doing. This doesn't mean play like New Zealand but if your team isn't even capable of matching NZ in any areas, you are stuffed. NZ can deal with a slow, set piece game all day long, Wales proved that. They will just sit there and absorb tons of pressure then 1 gap and they turnover the ball and score a try.

 

[Facile]

Yet nobody has shown that any other way works. What are the facts? NZ are dominating every single team on the planet, the games aren't even close. It's all very well saying we have to play differently and not emulate NZ but where has anyone had success with this? They haven't, the odd win is all that people have hoped to achieve. Our U20's HAVE copied NZ and you know what? In recent years it has paid off and now England U20's are consistantly beating NZ U20's. The way to beat NZ is to copy what they are doing. This doesn't mean play like New Zealand but if your team isn't even capable of matching NZ in any areas, you are stuffed. NZ can deal with a slow, set piece game all day long, Wales proved that. They will just sit there and absorb tons of pressure then 1 gap and they turnover the ball and score a try.

Basically what Jones is going to do is copy what the All Blacks are doing, then claim he's not.

He goes on to talk about getting the players fitter, which is essentially where the AB's have everyone beaten. Make sure the teams fit for the whole 80 minutes, instead of dropping off in the last 15 minutes and making sure the bench is quality and lose nothing when coming on.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Basically what Jones is going to do is copy what the All Blacks are doing, then claim he's not.

He goes on to talk about getting the players fitter, which is essentially where the AB's have everyone beaten. Make sure the teams fit for the whole 80 minutes, instead of dropping off in the last 15 minutes and making sure the bench is quality and lose nothing when coming on.

is phsyical fitness part of the game that the all blacks have copyrighted... i think every team is always looking to have players in better shape

 

[Facile]

Rubbish.

Not rubbish. There have been years where they have not been the best side. But from generation to generation they have been the most consistent team in history. 77% winning record.

 

[Sailor Pete]

It's all very well saying we have to play differently and not emulate NZ but where has anyone had success with this?

Ok, so I might be pushing my luck here - and I know you refer specifically to emulating NZ, but Eddie Jones learned the way the Boks play and took that knowledge to Japan. He trained them to beat the Boks, not by taking us on at the breakdown, or in the set pieces. He knew Japan could never beat the Boks head on, so in his inimitable and wily way, he showed them another way.. and stunned the world.

Just before England left to pay Australia, Eddie Jones was interviewed on Sky Sport, and was asked what his plans were for this English team. He looked at the camera with a wry smile and told the presenter to ask him what his plans were for New Zealand. The presenter bit, and Eddie told him to make the All Blacks the second best rugby team in the world.