[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: Ireland vs. Italy (12/03/2016)

[Groundhog]

Ah Marmion's had a good string of games now. Box kicking is pants though.

 

[collace]

Depressing stuff. McFadden? Seriously struggling with the logic.

 

[munstermuffin]

Madigan on bench over PJ as he covers centre yes? So why McFadden over form back 3 guys? If it was because he can play centre I'd say ok but we have guy already serving that purpose and another in Earls who could fill in if needs be.

 

[profitius]

McFadden confirms the widely held view that Schmidt picks wingers based on how good they are at rucking.

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

Absolutely infuriating. In no way shape or form is this a step forward. We can't just throw all our new players into huge matches like England away as we did with McCloskey. & In my eyes, he did pretty damn well in that situation. Few mistakes, yes, but what do you expect from someone who just burst onto club rugby this season? Not a chance should he have been dropped.

What does Luke Marshall have to do to get on the bench by the way? Covers 12/13 and has been on fire this season. Gilroy has been on form, playing at fullback, and has more attacking threat than Zebo and McFadden put together. Jackson also, he's now way ahead of Madigan. I'm bored of the whole 'oh but he has attacking flair off the bench.' Rubbish. In fact, against Italy I probably would have started Jackson with Sexton on the bench.

We would gain far more from a close game against Italy than winning 40+ with a solid, tried and tested team. Boring.

Edit: Forgot about Olding. I can understand him not being included as he's not long back from injury, but he's been playing pretty well and he's one of the most talented if not the most talented back in Ireland. Why not give him 20 mins off the bench? Covers 10, 12, 13 and 15.

 

[Amiga500]

JOkE. Utter utter joke.

What the f__k is Schmidt's remit exactly, who is the buffon insisting on out of form, over the hill and not good enough players?



[Olding ain't ready, he's been making plenty of mistakes since his return and is far from international grade right now.]

 

[UlsterRugby2012]

JOkE. Utter utter joke.

What the f__k is Schmidt's remit exactly, who is the buffon insisting on out of form, over the hill and not good enough players?



[Olding ain't ready, he's been making plenty of mistakes since his return and is far from international grade right now.]

I think he's been solid enough, still picks great lines and I'd trust him defensively against Italy. I don't think 20 minutes would hurt but I see where you're coming from. My point is that there is still many options other than McFadden.

 

[lynam1104]

Madigan on bench over PJ as he covers centre yes? So why McFadden over form back 3 guys? If it was because he can play centre I'd say ok but we have guy already serving that purpose and another in Earls who could fill in if needs be.

yes

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Hold up on the outrage just a second lads! The team is a bit disappointing but for me that's down to three selections, McFadden, White and Trimble. Trimble has been bad so far this six nations, looks slow and isn't running the lines that has got him this far, McFadden isn't tearing up the pro 12 at the moment but he's on the bench so that's not that important. The options behind them are Gilroy, Healy and O'Halloran attack wise they're great but defensively that's terrifying... Rory Scholes is a guy I think will be a strong back three option come 2019 but he's not ready. So while picking Gilroy might look positive he still has a lot of work to do with Ulster before he gets a chance over proven internationals in McFadden and Trimble so they're there because of a lack of options. Things would look better with Dave Kearney, Luke Fitz and Tommy Bowe about. White is 93 years old though and not a whole lot better than Furlong so something's a bit off there.

Other areas of concern seem to be McCloskey, he played ok against England but after a second viewing he have the ball away in important areas that you simply shouldn't and that's a big no no under Schmidt. Give him instructions to improve, send him to work on it in Ulster, let him tear things up in the Veldt. The disappointing thing is that Henshaw is a brilliant 13 but as of now Henshaw and Payne > McCloskey and Payne

Jackson, If he was on the bench and Henshaw gets injured we have no 12 cover, if we had Fitz about I think we see PJ on the bench.

Dillane, put him in for Ryan and we don't have a scrum, put him in for Toner and we have no one to call line outs. Bench is correct.

Positives is that we have VDF, Stander and Dillane getting more games. Four debuts in a 6 nations is very good and these guys are being filtered in properly. Wholescale changes like we saw in the backline in 2013 can lead to disaster and hold back players' careers, look at PJ and Marshall it took them two years to recover, injuries were a factor I know.

 

[Peat]

How on earth can being stuck in for a debut in the hardest game of the 6N, then being dropped straight away for the easiest with public criticism be 'filtered in properly'? I'll agree sticking in players too quickly can cause issues but what's happened to McCloskey is just as big an issue. Payne is Ireland's Brad Barritt, there is no way that he and Henshaw are a better centre partnership than McCloskey and Henshaw.

Gilroy's defence is not terrifying. Trimble's lack of pace is terrifying. McFadden's mediocrity is terrifying. I don't think Gilroy's defence is great, but it's no worse than plenty of international wingers out there... including recent iterations of Bowe (who really may not return at international standard).

You won't see Jackson on the bench as Schmidt just clearly doesn't rate him. I'm no longer buying the versatility excuse. I just hope Schmidt's gone before Jackson next needs his contract renewed.

Dillane can't scrummage as well as Ryan? Wut? Not like Toner's getting the lineout right either at the moment.

This selection is Outrage City for me. This is Kidney Mk 2.

 

[Every Time Ref]

How on earth can being stuck in for a debut in the hardest game of the 6N, then being dropped straight away for the easiest with public criticism be 'filtered in properly'? I'll agree sticking in players too quickly can cause issues but what's happened to McCloskey is just as big an issue. Payne is Ireland's Brad Barritt, there is no way that he and Henshaw are a better centre partnership than McCloskey and Henshaw.

Gilroy's defence is not terrifying. Trimble's lack of pace is terrifying. McFadden's mediocrity is terrifying. I don't think Gilroy's defence is great, but it's no worse than plenty of international wingers out there... including recent iterations of Bowe (who really may not return at international standard).

You won't see Jackson on the bench as Schmidt just clearly doesn't rate him. I'm no longer buying the versatility excuse. I just hope Schmidt's gone before Jackson next needs his contract renewed.

Dillane can't scrummage as well as Ryan? Wut? Not like Toner's getting the lineout right either at the moment.

This selection is Outrage City for me. This is Kidney Mk 2.

It's like you miss b1tching at Lancaster's selection so badly you've just jumped across to the Irish section of the board to get your fix

 

[Peat]

It's like you miss b1tching at Lancaster's selection so badly you've just jumped across to the Irish section of the board to get your fix

*points to the Ulster badge* I've always loitered around the Irish threads. You can't support one of the provinces without taking an interest in Ireland; it'd be like trying to understand sausage and bacon without understanding pigs.

 

[Every Time Ref]

*points to the Ulster badge* I've always loitered around the Irish threads. You can't support one of the provinces without taking an interest in Ireland; it'd be like trying to understand sausage and bacon without understanding pigs.

Oh I know, I see you around here a lot - tend to read without contributing much. The sense of deja vu just struck me, that's all.

Although I'm not convinced by your analogy ... who's the bacon here?!

 

[munstermuffin]

*points to the Ulster badge* I've always loitered around the Irish threads. You can't support one of the provinces without taking an interest in Ireland; it'd be like trying to understand sausage and bacon without understanding pigs.

Could be Turkey rashers

 

[Peat]

Oh I know, I see you around here a lot - tend to read without contributing much. The sense of deja vu just struck me, that's all.

Although I'm not convinced by your analogy ... who's the bacon here?!

I'd meant it to mean the Irish team is the pig and the provinces are the pig products, but it could work equally well the other way around. You can look at sausages and bacon and think sure you'll get them whatever the weather, but if the pig is unhealthy you get worse quality product, and if the pig dies, you have to make do with inferior stuff like turkey bacon and beef sausages.

If the Irish team is failing, there's less money for the provinces and less incentive for players to stay and play for Ireland - and the latter also goes when you've got the provincial tinted glasses on and players at certain provinces reckon they've not got a shot. Players like Gilroy, Jackson, Marshall - they could probably lift their wages by 50pc for a move. Their international careers look (slightly hyperbolic here, but only slightly) dead. Is the lure of playing at home enough to keep them in that case?

Could be Turkey rashers

Banned.

 

[Amiga500]

Is the lure of playing at home enough to keep them in that case?

They stay for the weather.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How on earth can being stuck in for a debut in the hardest game of the 6N, then being dropped straight away for the easiest with public criticism be 'filtered in properly'? I'll agree sticking in players too quickly can cause issues but what's happened to McCloskey is just as big an issue. Payne is Ireland's Brad Barritt, there is no way that he and Henshaw are a better centre partnership than McCloskey and Henshaw.

Gilroy's defence is not terrifying. Trimble's lack of pace is terrifying. McFadden's mediocrity is terrifying. I don't think Gilroy's defence is great, but it's no worse than plenty of international wingers out there... including recent iterations of Bowe (who really may not return at international standard).

You won't see Jackson on the bench as Schmidt just clearly doesn't rate him. I'm no longer buying the versatility excuse. I just hope Schmidt's gone before Jackson next needs his contract renewed.

Dillane can't scrummage as well as Ryan? Wut? Not like Toner's getting the lineout right either at the moment.

This selection is Outrage City for me. This is Kidney Mk 2.

He was injury cover, good injury cover but still just injury cover, he gave the ball away in areas he just shouldn't have in the first half and the defence wasn't what Henshaw and Payne have in the second. I know he's only played one game but Henshaw and Payne have been better than what McCloskey and Henshaw were two weeks ago many times, most recently against Wales this year. The partnership has huge potential, best in the world potential, but McCloskey got a taste of international rugby was too raw and has ample time to fix that with his province.

A bit of hyperbole there but his defence being below the average of an international winger, Schmidt's teams have always been built on defence, Leinster includeditvwas no coincidence that BOD and D'Arcy became far better defensively in the Schmidt years, and so far it's brought him a Top 14, a challenge cup, a pro12, 2 HEC and 2 6 nations so it's clearly a working formula. Schmidt will have Earls, DK, Zebo and Fitzgerald at his disposal in SA, clearly doesn't see a place for Gilroy and wants the harder working and better defensive options right now. Setting the world alight in the next two games would be papering over the cracks, Schmidt is laying the foundations that the team needs and will use in the future, Gilroy most likely knows why he's not getting picked and needs to improve in that area before getting his game.

I think Schmidt needs Mad's versatility for this one. Anyone can see PJ is the better player right now but that 12 cover could be vital. Either that or Schmidt doesn't see PJ as a bench player, apart from Argentina, following Madigan's best ever performance, he has always started Jackson ahead of Mads.

Toner and Dillane wouldn't, and didn't, work in the scrum it's just not a good match. The sooner Henderson comes back and Toner goes or improves due to having a less expansive workload the better. But right now we need him because however bad the line out was in Twickenham it could get worse.

Schmidt's picked his side to win and they will, he can't afford to take risks at the moment. Home losses to Italy and Scotland, Ireland are third seeds in the RWC POOLS and he's out of the job.

edit: he's far from Kidney 2.0, the man hasn't lost a real game in Ireland since 2013. If he can keep that up for a year he goes from arguably the best Irish coach ever to the best Irish coach ever and that's almost certainly what he's building for right now.

 

[Peat]

If you're only bringing him in for one match - that the most difficult of all - when he's not ready, then you're not filtering him in properly.

Now, I didn't see the match, I can't be sure if McCloskey/Henshaw is truly a better pairing than Henshaw/Payne - but whatever way you twist it, McCloskey was not filtered in properly. Either he was put in when not ready, or he's being dropped when he shouldn't be - or possibly both because Henshaw/Payne is mediocre. It's not a good tier 1 centre partnership. It has a blunt attacking edge and the idea a side can get to the top of rugby with a blunt attack is currently not true. Raw or not, mistakes or not, McCloskey offers something big in attack.

And to skip right to the second last point, if Schmidt can't coach the side that played against England to beat Italy at home, he doesn't deserve a job at the current level. Because it's Italy. At home. You can afford to let McCloskey make mistakes and learn on the job because it's Italy.

Gilroy's defence is not below the level of most international wingers I've seen. It wasn't during his international breakthrough, it's not during Pro 12 games against other international wingers. That, and I've seen a lot of bad defence from international wingers... like, a lot.

When was the last time Madigan came on at anywhere other than 10? Not when Payne was playing with a hamstring tear, not when they shuffled the entire three-quarter line when replacing McCloskey. When was the last time prior to Argentina Schmidt had a direct shoot out between Madigan and Jackson to start?

How is Toner/Dillane any worse a match than Toner/Ryan?

Schmidt has failed to win 4 big games on the trot and is almost certainly going to lose a home game this Autumn. In fact, he could quite possibly register another 6 losses this year. But that's not why I'm compared him to Kidney. The adherence to tried and failed is why he's being compared to Kidney.

Right now I should be busy writing but am instead reading the various defences of Schmidt all over the net and laughing in sheer disbelief. Maybe he'll recover this all, he's a better coach than he's showing at the moment and we all know it but right now he's making poor selections and then doubling down on them. When does he fix this? Tossing youngsters to the wolves vs South Africa? A different flavour of failure against New Zealand?

 

[Gavin]

I was looking forward to this match, but now I don't care really. The Irish pack, I am happy with, but the back line is dull. England and Scotland put Italy to the sword but at this stage I'd like Italy to win.

Give me a backline of: Murray, Jackson, Earls, Henshaw, McCloskey, Gilroy, Payne

 

[Amiga500]

He was injury cover, good injury cover but still just injury cover, he gave the ball away in areas he just shouldn't have in the first half

If your going to start that craic, Rob Kearney should have been shot never mind dropped from the panel for his shocking 10 yard pass inside our '22 that went up as far as it went across!