[2016 RBS Six Nations] Round 2: Italy vs. England (14/02/2016)

[Maverick1987]

When's the team announced ?

 

[johnmac99]

When's the team announced ?

10 am tomorrow

- - - Updated - - -

Might be muddled here, but I was referring to the bench named as reported by Sky for the game against Italy (this being the Italy vs England thread and all).

Sorry mate. My mistake.

 

[MarkyH]

When's the team announced ?

Came in here to ask the same question. 10am tomorrow. So by 10.05 we'll all be here moaning about Goode playing FB and Brown on the wing. With a surprise Nick Easter call up out of nowhere...

 

[Maverick1987]

Came in here to ask the same question. 10am tomorrow. So by 10.05 we'll all be here moaning about Goode playing FB and Brown on the wing. With a surprise Nick Easter call up out of nowhere...

Haha yes !!!!

 

[Peat]

Depends, who is the best full-back after Brown? because Brown was not clever at the weekend, either with his running or kicking. Depending on whether or not he can improve, Goode may well be the better option. On the bench he seems as versatile as they come.

Goode isn't versatile?

He's pretty much only played 15 at international level with a brief spell at 10. He's played pretty much only 15 at club level with a couple of games at 10. 10 is his second strongest proven position and I would vomit with nerves if we had to play him there in a game that mattered because he simply doesn't have the experience.

Now, no one knows how he'd get on as a winger or centre because there's incredibly little evidence either way, but given that his weaknesses as an international full-back come down to speed, inability to make ground ball in hand, and tackling, it's hard to see it going well.

He's a one-position full-back and worse, the full-back he's covering is one-position only. Brown on the wing is an accident waiting to happen; we've discovered that one already. Neither possess the athleticism to be wingers or the size to be centres.

It is the least versatile possible selection of England's backs. I would rail that if Goode is England's second best full-back, then England only have one international quality full-back, but I can accept the possibility I'm wrong there. Highly unlikely on past evidence, but there we go. The versatility thing? That one's been pretty much proven as much as possible already.

 

[Tony Manx]

Depends, who is the best full-back after Brown? because Brown was not clever at the weekend, either with his running or kicking. .

Rubbish!

 

[Tmartin995]

I think the problem with Goode is that he doesn't have the physical ability to play international rugby. He does have a very good rugby brain and basic skills, e.g. Handling and kicking, that's good enough for him to get by in the Prem but has constantly has been exposed at international level.

Personally I think he'd be more suited to playing fly half at international level as there's less chance of being exposed, (not that I'm advocating him as a potential 10 selection as he doesn't play there regularly enough).

 

[Willodell100]

Right I feel like I need to stick up for Alex Goode here &, just to put on record, I am no fan of Saracens or the type of rugby they ply (even if undoubtedly an extremely effective type of rugby).

I agree Goode shouldn't be on the bench as he is only covers one position. This isn't on its own a bad thing but under the recent circumstance (having one of Watson, Nowell or May in the side as well as Brown) it makes little sense. In my opinion and many others it seems we need a specialist wing cover on the bench.

But I disagree entirely with those that say he doesn't deserve to be in squad for the following reasons.

He has played consistently well for Saracens for at least three seasons now if not more & has been nothing other than excellent this season. If we don't pick players in form from our premier league to represent our country then something is wrong with our game structure.

Personally I would either have him start ahead of Brown (who has had his worst start to a season for Quins in ages) or not at all. All this talk of him 'not being international quality' is a load of rubbish. Yes he doesn't have electrifying pace but he has a good turn of pace. He reading of the game is second to none, his positioning is excellent & he is extremely good under the high ball. His kicking out of hand is of consistently high quality. His range is excellent with his apprenticeship at 10 & because he reads the game so well it means he can cut an excellent line in attack. His passing range & ability, again honed playing at 10, is good off both both sides (Farrell certainly can't say that) & he often creates move space for others with his clever footwork.

All in all he does the basics better than any other full back in England. This is why he is in the squad and why he has been regularly over the past 3yrs. It has only been for Brown's excellence that he hasn't had more.

 

[Every Time Ref]

He has played consistently well for Saracens for at least three seasons now if not more & has been nothing other than excellent this season. If we don't pick players in form from our premier league to represent our country then something is wrong with our game structure.

Whether something is wrong with our game structure is irrelevant. Either he's good enough at international level or he isn't. And in my opinion he isn't.

I disagree with the assumption that because he's a top Premiership player he's necessarily an international one. There are players who are great for their clubs but unable to make the step up for whatever reason - as a Bath fan I love Banahan but I'm not shouting for him in the England side because he's a proven international failure. I'm sure supporters of any club can think of their own example, Alex Goode is one of those players.

 

[spartan32]

Right I feel like I need to stick up for Alex Goode here &, just to put on record, I am no fan of Saracens or the type of rugby they ply (even if undoubtedly an extremely effective type of rugby).

I agree Goode shouldn't be on the bench as he is only covers one position. This isn't on its own a bad thing but under the recent circumstance (having one of Watson, Nowell or May in the side as well as Brown) it makes little sense. In my opinion and many others it seems we need a specialist wing cover on the bench.

But I disagree entirely with those that say he doesn't deserve to be in squad for the following reasons.

He has played consistently well for Saracens for at least three seasons now if not more & has been nothing other than excellent this season. If we don't pick players in form from our premier league to represent our country then something is wrong with our game structure.

Personally I would either have him start ahead of Brown (who has had his worst start to a season for Quins in ages) or not at all. All this talk of him 'not being international quality' is a load of rubbish. Yes he doesn't have electrifying pace but he has a good turn of pace. He reading of the game is second to none, his positioning is excellent & he is extremely good under the high ball. His kicking out of hand is of consistently high quality. His range is excellent with his apprenticeship at 10 & because he reads the game so well it means he can cut an excellent line in attack. His passing range & ability, again honed playing at 10, is good off both both sides (Farrell certainly can't say that) & he often creates move space for others with his clever footwork.

All in all he does the basics better than any other full back in England. This is why he is in the squad and why he has been regularly over the past 3yrs. It has only been for Brown's excellence that he hasn't had more.

Ok. Let's say Goode is a real contender at international level at 15, and not simply made to look very good by a totally dominant Sarries pack that flatter all their backs. The issue still remains that this is the only position he covers. The same of course can be said for Brown, but he has been consistently one of England's best players and most dangerous counter attacking threats, add to that the experience and leadership he brings to the team and I fail to see how Goode is ever going to get a look in unless brown is injured and unable to start or has a drastic drop in form, which will remain to be seen. As neither of those things are currently the case I see no point in having Goode taking up a place on the bench that could be filled by someone who can actually impact upon a game and who can cover more then one spot so they can be used in the most effective position depending on the flow of play.

Id be happy to see what he can do from the start of Jones wants to see that, and if you're going to have him in the set up you may as well give him a shot. But I'm not happy to have him taking up valuable space on the bench.

 

[Maverick1987]

Team pretty much as sky said

Sorry about crap picture . Not sure why the quality is bad

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I just don't really get it. I don't understand the changes apart from Mako. I think Youngs should have started against Scotland but why drop Care and Launchbury and still play Faz at 12. Get Devoto in there with Faz at 10, Daly off the bench for Joseph and see what the team dynamic will be like when Slade is fully fit.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Hopefully this image is clearer

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Imagine a 2nd half pack of

1) Vunipola
2) George
3) Hill
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Itojie
7) Clifford
8) Vunipola

 

[MarkyH]

Imagine a 2nd half pack of

1) Vunipola
2) George
3) Hill
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Itojie
7) Clifford
8) Vunipola

That's what I'm hoping for... Love it... Shame the team isn't as inspiring as the bench...

 

[JJFlash]

Hmmm! Didn't EJ say something about wanting a faster game plan? That back row - ok, quite effective against the Sweaties, isn't exactly built for speed, innit?
Thought he'd have found a place for Clifford in the starting XV and an opportunity has been lost to try a new centre pairing.
Should scrape a narrow win!

 

[spartan32]

Forwards bench options are pretty encouraging and could really rip up the Italians in the last 30. Still Goode, why God?! Why?!! I suppose Jones just wants to see what Youngs will do and the same might be said for Lawes.

But the 10 12 axis I really don't understand. FAZ CANNOT PLAY 12! I'd rather see him benched and Devoto there and just let Ford run the show. And with that you would have bath players at 10/12/13/14 which could lead to some nice continuity of play.

Whatever happens England need to put a big score on Italy as this competition often comes down to points difference. Not to say they should play too loose early on but the have to put the hammer down in the 2nd half while keeping the Italian score to the bare minimum, and given the lack of threat in attack the Italians pose and the lack of a decent goal kicker this should be the result. I don't want to show disrespect to Italy as I so often admire their determination and desire, but we need to put a marker down and show no mercy.

 

[Crapspray]

Hmmm! Didn't EJ say something about wanting a faster game plan? That back row - ok, quite effective against the Sweaties, isn't exactly built for speed, innit?

I'd expect England/Eddie are going to attempt to do what Ireland did in 2014: build a solid 9-12 point lead through low-risk forward play and then open it up after 60 minutes when Italy tire and lose their shape. Hoping to then put three or four tries on to make the scoreline look good.

I just hope that Mako finally adds some carrying ability to the pack and stops his brother having to do it all. I'm also interested to see if Itoje comes on at flanker or Jones changes both locks.

Oh and we don't concede three tries through sloppy defence like last year.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Imagine a 2nd half pack of

1) Vunipola
2) George
3) Hill
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Itojie
7) Clifford
8) Vunipola

Certainly a lot more carriers in that pack. Maybe that's the medium-term plan? I'd be happy with that.

Forwards bench options are pretty encouraging and could really rip up the Italians in the last 30. Still Goode, why God?! Why?!! I suppose Jones just wants to see what Youngs will do and the same might be said for Lawes.

But the 10 12 axis I really don't understand. FAZ CANNOT PLAY 12! I'd rather see him benched and Devoto there and just let Ford run the show. And with that you would have bath players at 10/12/13/14 which could lead to some nice continuity of play.

Whatever happens England need to put a big score on Italy as this competition often comes down to points difference. Not to say they should play too loose early on but the have to put the hammer down in the 2nd half while keeping the Italian score to the bare minimum, and given the lack of threat in attack the Italians pose and the lack of a decent goal kicker this should be the result. I don't want to show disrespect to Italy as I so often admire their determination and desire, but we need to put a marker down and show no mercy.

Except they haven't actually played together that much. Devoto has hardly played twelve at all fro Bath (although his best games have been there) and I don't think at all this season.

I still don't know what he's doing in the squad to be honest, although he should be on the bench over Goode.

 

[spartan32]

I've just taken another look at the team and it would seem that Jones has taken a big risk with the backs as there is no cover from the bench for either centre position.

Should Faz get smashed up for example id imagine Knowell would have to slip into 12, where he doesn't play, brown to wing (and we all know how well that works) and the dreaded Goode off the bench to full back. Now Knowell is a pretty handy lad and has impressed for club when asked to suddenly change position, but this is international rugby and such things should not be taken for granted.

I suppose all we can do is hope that doesn't happen!!!