[2015 TRC] Australia v New Zealand in Sydney (08/08/2015)

[Larksea]

one last thing I got from the game which is not really to do with the result or play but with head knocks.

David Pocock had a pretty sickening head clash with Falou and was out cold, layed flat out on the ground for some time, was attended too by the trainers yet played on and was given time to recover before later going for a concussion check and then finishing the game. Anyone else follow that?

IMO that really shouldn't happen, the administrators are always talking about player safety first but when it comes time for tough important calls on player safety in big matches the rules go out the window.

A similar thing actually happened for Hooper a couple of years ago.

It's Russian roulette, a player can recover fairly quickly but if they sustain another knock soon after that's when the risk of permanent damage jumps significantly.

 

[smartcooky]

Ben Smith for Conrad

Ahem, you are suggesting playing the world's best fullback.... at centre.

Are you hoping for third time lucky?

 

[Kiwi_]

Starting team next game and res should be:

1.Crockett ---> Woodcock
2.Coles ---> Taylor
3.Laulala ---> Frank
4.Retallick
5.Whitelock ---> Broadhurst
6.Cane ---> Todd
7.McCaw
8.Reid ---> Vito
9.Smith ---> TJ
10.Sopoanga ---> Barrett
11.Piutau
12.Nonu ---> Fekitoa
13.Smith ---> Crotty
14.Skudder
15.Smith ---> Slade

SBW needs to go, sorry, he only shows in lite games where he's not under any form of pressure. I would much rather have the "bland" but reliable Crotty who does not miss a beat or kick the ball away needlessly and will run at the line. We've completely wasted our time on this guy,, everyone's listened to his press and this off-load nonsense we're fed, can someone tell me a big game where this guy showed up??

The old firm can be used as late game subs, asking them to play the majority of the game is too much for them, bring them on late if you have to.

Julian needs a huge kick up the a$$ I hope Hansen has done it, he needs to stop making his silly dancing videos and getting on the p.iss and focus more on the RWC, the biggest tournament of his career, he's going in with a bit of a Jonah Lomu rep and right now he's playing more like a Black Ferns winger than an All Black!!!

I'd only start Smith to actually keep building on the Smith - Sopoanga combination, other than that he's really lucky if he's starting.

 

[Kiwi_]

Historically speaking it seems now is the absolute worst time.

The start of a four year cycle is when you introduce new players, not at the end of it. It's knee jerk reactions to players having fairly average games, that would be the dumbest thing to do. In Fekitoa's 8 test matches he has not shown he is capable of organizing a backline. Sopoaga just had a good games against the Boks...who not meaning to offend just lost of both Australia and Argentina.

If the players are genuinely past it, well unfortunately by in large that is just the cards we have been dealt. You can't strip the backbone out of a team which has played together for years, and just assume the guys who have managed a staggering 5 months of form will be able to run the ship.

All though I'm agreeing some what of what you're saying, I have to say I disagree. We need to be more flexible and adaptive if something is not working, we've built depth for a reason and we have depth and better options now. We have to work towards those options instead of hoping older players will miraculously return to their 4 years ago self. It's unrealistic to expect this but it's more realistic to play the younger players who are in great form and proven themselves to do a job. Going into a RWC with a plan b and plan c and a plan d, that can win us the RWC. We have the best cards in the world in a number of areas and we need to play them, you're speaking like we're dealt with a shtty hand which we are far from, we have a massive versatile hand we need to utilize, it's there if he has the balls to play it.

May I ask what was the point of blooding Cane so much? He has not featured and I don't know if he will... Same goes for Barrett, he's barely had a shot, just a few cameos at fullback sub.

Carters just too slow around the park now sorry and he's not going to be any faster next week. It doesn't mean scrap him completely, it just means limit his exposure some what.

No idea why Kaino just walked back into the side either, we've had Messam and Cane and even Todd there doing the business for us while he was away in Japan playing soft Rugby, he hasn't done enough for me and living off his past stock.

 

[austingtir]

Starting team next game and res should be:

1.Crockett ---> Woodcock
2.Coles ---> Taylor
3.Laulala ---> Frank
4.Retallick
5.Whitelock ---> Broadhurst
6.Cane ---> Todd
7.McCaw
8.Reid ---> Vito
9.Smith ---> TJ
10.Sopoanga ---> Barrett
11.Piutau
12.Nonu ---> Fekitoa
13.Smith ---> Crotty
14.Skudder
15.Smith ---> Slade

SBW needs to go, sorry, he only shows in lite games where he's not under any form of pressure. I would much rather have the "bland" but reliable Crotty who does not miss a beat or kick the ball away needlessly and will run at the line. We've completely wasted our time on this guy,, everyone's listened to his press and this off-load nonsense we're fed, can someone tell me a big game where this guy showed up??

The old firm can be used as late game subs, asking them to play the majority of the game is too much for them, bring them on late if you have to.

Julian needs a huge kick up the a$$ I hope Hansen has done it, he needs to stop making his silly dancing videos and getting on the p.iss and focus more on the RWC, the biggest tournament of his career, he's going in with a bit of a Jonah Lomu rep and right now he's playing more like a Black Ferns winger than an All Black!!!

I'd only start Smith to actually keep building on the Smith - Sopoanga combination, other than that he's really lucky if he's starting.

Thats just crazy and kneejerk. If we made that many changes... Honestly id go and put a $1 on the Aussies straight up. 3 or 4 changes maximum imo and even thats pushing it for me.

We got beat because we were lazy, misread Australia tactically, misread the ref, didnt match Australia physically and couldnt react and change our game up mid game. Im just bloody glad this wake up call happened now and not in 3 months time.

Australia will rate themselves so much to knock us over at Eden park its not even funny. We have to be calm and calculated in what we do in the leadup to this match and I liked what I heard from Hansen after the game on those areas.

 

[Kiwi_]

Thats just crazy and kneejerk. If we made that many changes... Honestly id go and put a $1 on the Aussies straight up. 3 or 4 changes maximum imo and even thats pushing it for me.

We got beat because we were lazy, misread Australia tactically, misread the ref, didnt match Australia physically and couldnt react and change our game up mid game. Im just bloody glad this wake up call happened now and not in 3 months time.

Australia will rate themselves so much to knock us over at Eden park its not even funny. We have to be calm and calculated in what we do in the leadup to this match and I liked what I heard from Hansen after the game on those areas.

The arrows mean subs.

 

[austingtir]

i know i've blabbered on a bit but no it's not time to panic, at this particular point in time the aussies in sydney with wane barnes as the ref was probably the worst case scenario in world rugby for the ab's. They wont have to do that again this year. Regroup, stay positive, work hard. I expect a big comeback game.

THIS. I honestly think Barnes had alot more influence on the result of this game than many think. The proof of that will be this weekend.

- - - Updated - - -

The arrows mean subs.

Ahh yes it makes sense now. I thought you'd totally lost your mind there.

 

[austingtir]

http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/08/07/spiro-will-referee-wayne-barnes-remain-perfect-fit-wallabies/

Pretty much sums up what I think of Barnes I know most dont agree with me but honestly I think he's easily swayed (thats as mild a word as I can come up with to describe it) and from that moment on the other team is on the receiving end for the rest of the game. For some reason NZ has ended up on that receiving end from this guy more often that not. The only reason I reckon Barnes has not been mentioned more is he dealt out more yellows to Australia than us. The yellows had a marginal effect in this game for both sides. Both of these teams are solid with a player off and know how to handle it NZ may have leaked more points with our yellow than australia did with two but im not sure on that. I know they scored a try when A Smith was in the bin.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

THIS. I honestly think Barnes had alot more influence on the result of this game than many think. The proof of that will be this weekend.

- - - Updated - - -



Ahh yes it makes sense now. I thought you'd totally lost your mind there.

Jeez la Wheeze, you really do have a chip on your shoulder regarding Wayne Barnes. Get over it. You play to the ref, and the Wallabies did this better than the ABs on the night. ABs also got away with slowing the ball down illegally at times during the match. Two examples in the 2nd half were: Kaino lying on the wrong side of the ruck and then failed to get out of the way, whilst still lying on the ground on the wrong side, he sticks his hand out to impede Nick Phipps, who then threw a wild pass to Foley, who had to touch down in the Wallabies try area, after being tackled by Read. The second, in the lead up to the White scored the try, McCaw did exactly the same, again got cleaned out at the ruck but then was lying on the wrong side of the ruck and whilst still lying on the wrong side, tried to impede White with his hand and then stuck it out casually to try and impede him passing.

Of course refs get swayed by the home crowd, they are human at the end of the day. No different to Joubert being swayed by the home crowd in 2011 RWC final.

Who is to say the ABs won't have WB refereeing another game for them in the knock out stages of the RWC?

 

[nickdnz]

Okay I'm going to entertain some changes:

1. Woodcock for Crockett. Absolutely no problem with this one. Crockett has had a lot of test exposure, including playing most of last year. He is another experienced player who I would have no problem starting for a RWC final. Personally I would stick with Woodcock on the bench - he is a far, far, far better scrummager than Faumuina (who it seems has a serious of simply terrible matches, is dropped and then people call for him to play like they just took a steel pipe to the head and forgot how average he is at scrummaging). Moody would be the only realistic option on the bench for loosehead outside of Woodcock. He's not a game changer, but hasn't looked out of his depth yet.

2. Coles. No one moves Coles. Because that would be very dumb. Someone said swap him for Mealamu earlier in this thread. If there is a player in the squad who seems to have been hit by age the most - it is 36 year old Keven Mealamu - who despite not playing for a few weeks now, didn't suddenly become younger. I'm not opposed to Mealamu on the bench as bringing on a bit of experience later in the games may not hurt, but Codie Taylor hasn't looked bad in his limited exposure.

3. Owen Franks for me probably stays. He had some uncharacteristic lapses in defense (which no one could claim is a reoccurring issue) last game. His scrummaging has been solid rather than destructive. Laulala despite me talking him up for the last month, didn't make as much impact and also made some defensive lapses. I don't rate Ben Franks at TH particularly highly, and again I think Faumuina is bordering terrible. So no change, with Laulala on the bench at this stage.

4. Luke Romano. He can be changed for literally any lock in the frame. I don't think he is first choice, but he is one guy who I don't know how he was selected. At his best, I thought he was average. He runs too upright as a carry options, and for a grunt-man doesn't seem to be all that effective. I imagine Sam Whitelock will be back in this week, which is good as one of his underrated qualities is his ability to contest for the ball. Shame Tuipolotu is out as he was my next pick, but I'd go with Broadhurst or even Thrush as a bench option. Really so long as i don't see Romano anywhere near the squad I'll be happy.

5. Brodie Retallick was IRB Player of the Year last year. I think he's pretty safe. As it is I think he is one of only three forwards (along with Coles and Read) who genuinely have the handling ability to run the plays we kept messing up last week.

6. Kaino stays. I don't know how anyone could want to replace him if I'm honest. He was immense last year (so digs at him being stuck in Japan are ridiculous). He didn't make as much of an impact with ball in hand this game, but I haven't seen Messam ever be effective in a tight game with ball in hand. Messam carries sideways far too much, and I don't think he is any better at the breakdown. The only thing I think Messam does better is a slightly higher work-rate on defense, which isn't a weakness of Kaino anyway (and Kaino tends to prevent players from going past the advantage line).

7. McCaw - well we're not going to replace McCaw. Sam Cane is great and in my opinion probably a more effective openside flanker than McCaw these days. But McCaw won't be replaced. Talks of Savea and Todd just don't seem particularly realistic. My preference is for Sam Cane to be the Looseforward bench option over Messam/Vito.

8. Kieran Read isn't playing as well as he has, he looks like his form has been a bit off since his concussion a few months back. Regardless he is still a fantastic player and our best option at 8. Love Vito - but he hasn't been given enough time at 8 for the Abs to have a realistic chance at starting there - he also hasn't nailed down previous chances well enough.

9. Aaron Smith last year and even earlier this year was being talked about as the All Blacks most important player. Even during Super Rugby. Now he shouldn't start. ********. Tj Peranara is a fantastic player - my preference for the bench - but Aaron Smith still delivers quality ball better than anyone. His crappy box-kicking? Well it isn't new. He has had some howlers for years (despite people saying he's a great box kicker), but what he does he does better than any other halfback and I think to drop him would be mental. If I had it my way we would have Tj on the bench and Brad Weber as the extra halfback. No idea why Kerr-Barlow was selected, surely the AB selectors weren't saying he only needs one AB game to make it back into the squad for the RWC..

10. The most debated spot. My preference at this stage is Carter starting with Barrett on the bench to cover the back three if need be. If Carter doesn't perform up till the warmups, I'd have Barrett starting with Sopoaga on the bench. I don't especially rate Slade, but I'd imagine he will have nailed a spot as the coaches seem to think he can play anywhere in the back three...Either way for me I don't expect either of Carter, Barrett or Slade are likely to be dropped - Sopoaga will likely be on stand by.

11. Julian Savea is the best winger in the world. Dropping him for Osbourne is Highlander fanaticism. He has 30 tries in 34 games for goodness sake. People are *****ing about his fitness and acting surprised...yeah, he had an asthma attack in Jo'berg while training at altitude. That's probably going to affect your fitness with a test match two weeks later in Sydney. Similar thing happened on the EOYT two years back - which obviously meant he wasn't a capable player last year. It is too late to hope Osbourne will be an amazing winger for this RWC. My preference is Piatau on the bench. So I wouldn't make changes.

12. Sonny Bill Williams it's not hating, I don't think he should be starting for the All Blacks. When Nonu was in bad form in 2012 - SBW was the best 12 option we had. However he hasn't impressed at the Chiefs, I thought his game against Argentina was pretty average despite the rave reviews. He doesn't break the line, his option taking has consistently been suspect, and he doesn't do things with a great deal of pace. His defense isn't bad, nor is his work at the breakdown, but for me Nonu is the better player and in better form.

13. I don't want to see Conrad Smith go anywhere. The "he's too old" thing I think is a load of crock. When he has had the ball he has looked to have plenty of pace and runs hard and straightens as usual. It seems missing Jessie Kreil in a tackle is all it takes to get dropped after consistently being one of the ABs best players. Tackling at 90% in Super Rugby would indicate his defence is fine, especially when the suggested replacement in Fekitoa tackled at 72%. Which leads me onto the most important thing, Fekitoa hasn't had enough game time or shown an ability to organize defenses. He's a good player - but people are expecting him to replace a player who is in the team for a set of core skills that Fekitoa hasn't demonstrated he has - and just hope for the best. I would understand maybe some of the falls if Fekitoa has come on the field and been a game changer, but it hasn't happened yet.

14. So my one break in selecting new players is Nehe Milner-Skudder. I would either have him or Piatau starting with the other on the bench. NMS looked very good while he was on the field in tough conditions. He isn't a player with obvious shortcoming either. With no Naholo I'm very happy for NMS to be selected, even at the expense of Jane (although better if it was Dagg).

15. Keep Ben Smith at 15. Drop Dagg, he has shown no form in several years and is a liability.

So if we are to play the strongest team against Australia next week I would go with:

1. Wyatt Crockett
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Daniel Carter
11. Julian Savea
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Nehe Milner-Skudder
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Tony Woodcock
18. Nepo Laulala
19. James Broadhurst
20. Sam Cane
21. Tj Peranara
22. Beuden Barrett
23. Charles Piatau

What I think is most important (and the reason why we lost) is that players are simply more clinical, our back-line moves are less convoluted/better executed, and we put a lot more pressure on the breakdown. Generally we have been content to whether the storm on defense until the opposition make a mistake, in which we launch a counter attack/set piece. We can't rely on that. No need to panic though, we just need to do better. This isn't differenct from 2011.

 

[Kiwi_]

Nick how can we keep the same loose forward trio if we're so poor at the breakdown lately? We're not getting numbers to the ruck and when we do we're not cleaning them out. Kaino has been missing this season. He's ghosting through games and we're losing criminal ball because of it. You made 1 change to the forwards where we are hurting the most, the backline is fine apart form 1st 5 and 2nd 5 is questionable at times.

Cane, Todd and Ardie have all been better than Jerome.

Also I keep hearing this "The All Blacks don't punish injured players" - That's a fantastic philosophy, just don't abuse it like we're doing with TKB and Dagg. These guys aren't up to it anymore, we've got a few iffy mentalities in areas that we need to scrap. RWC is a few months away and we need fit inform players ready to go.

 

[Tony Manx]

Okay I'm going to entertain some changes:

1. Woodcock for Crockett. Absolutely no problem with this one. Crockett has had a lot of test exposure, including playing most of last year. He is another experienced player who I would have no problem starting for a RWC final. Personally I would stick with Woodcock on the bench - he is a far, far, far better scrummager than Faumuina (who it seems has a serious of simply terrible matches, is dropped and then people call for him to play like they just took a steel pipe to the head and forgot how average he is at scrummaging). Moody would be the only realistic option on the bench for loosehead outside of Woodcock. He's not a game changer, but hasn't looked out of his depth yet.

2. Coles. No one moves Coles. Because that would be very dumb. Someone said swap him for Mealamu earlier in this thread. If there is a player in the squad who seems to have been hit by age the most - it is 36 year old Keven Mealamu - who despite not playing for a few weeks now, didn't suddenly become younger. I'm not opposed to Mealamu on the bench as bringing on a bit of experience later in the games may not hurt, but Codie Taylor hasn't looked bad in his limited exposure.

3. Owen Franks for me probably stays. He had some uncharacteristic lapses in defense (which no one could claim is a reoccurring issue) last game. His scrummaging has been solid rather than destructive. Laulala despite me talking him up for the last month, didn't make as much impact and also made some defensive lapses. I don't rate Ben Franks at TH particularly highly, and again I think Faumuina is bordering terrible. So no change, with Laulala on the bench at this stage.

4. Luke Romano. He can be changed for literally any lock in the frame. I don't think he is first choice, but he is one guy who I don't know how he was selected. At his best, I thought he was average. He runs too upright as a carry options, and for a grunt-man doesn't seem to be all that effective. I imagine Sam Whitelock will be back in this week, which is good as one of his underrated qualities is his ability to contest for the ball. Shame Tuipolotu is out as he was my next pick, but I'd go with Broadhurst or even Thrush as a bench option. Really so long as i don't see Romano anywhere near the squad I'll be happy.

5. Brodie Retallick was IRB Player of the Year last year. I think he's pretty safe. As it is I think he is one of only three forwards (along with Coles and Read) who genuinely have the handling ability to run the plays we kept messing up last week.

6. Kaino stays. I don't know how anyone could want to replace him if I'm honest. He was immense last year (so digs at him being stuck in Japan are ridiculous). He didn't make as much of an impact with ball in hand this game, but I haven't seen Messam ever be effective in a tight game with ball in hand. Messam carries sideways far too much, and I don't think he is any better at the breakdown. The only thing I think Messam does better is a slightly higher work-rate on defense, which isn't a weakness of Kaino anyway (and Kaino tends to prevent players from going past the advantage line).

7. McCaw - well we're not going to replace McCaw. Sam Cane is great and in my opinion probably a more effective openside flanker than McCaw these days. But McCaw won't be replaced. Talks of Savea and Todd just don't seem particularly realistic. My preference is for Sam Cane to be the Looseforward bench option over Messam/Vito.

8. Kieran Read isn't playing as well as he has, he looks like his form has been a bit off since his concussion a few months back. Regardless he is still a fantastic player and our best option at 8. Love Vito - but he hasn't been given enough time at 8 for the Abs to have a realistic chance at starting there - he also hasn't nailed down previous chances well enough.

9. Aaron Smith last year and even earlier this year was being talked about as the All Blacks most important player. Even during Super Rugby. Now he shouldn't start. ********. Tj Peranara is a fantastic player - my preference for the bench - but Aaron Smith still delivers quality ball better than anyone. His crappy box-kicking? Well it isn't new. He has had some howlers for years (despite people saying he's a great box kicker), but what he does he does better than any other halfback and I think to drop him would be mental. If I had it my way we would have Tj on the bench and Brad Weber as the extra halfback. No idea why Kerr-Barlow was selected, surely the AB selectors weren't saying he only needs one AB game to make it back into the squad for the RWC..

10. The most debated spot. My preference at this stage is Carter starting with Barrett on the bench to cover the back three if need be. If Carter doesn't perform up till the warmups, I'd have Barrett starting with Sopoaga on the bench. I don't especially rate Slade, but I'd imagine he will have nailed a spot as the coaches seem to think he can play anywhere in the back three...Either way for me I don't expect either of Carter, Barrett or Slade are likely to be dropped - Sopoaga will likely be on stand by.

11. Julian Savea is the best winger in the world. Dropping him for Osbourne is Highlander fanaticism. He has 30 tries in 34 games for goodness sake. People are *****ing about his fitness and acting surprised...yeah, he had an asthma attack in Jo'berg while training at altitude. That's probably going to affect your fitness with a test match two weeks later in Sydney. Similar thing happened on the EOYT two years back - which obviously meant he wasn't a capable player last year. It is too late to hope Osbourne will be an amazing winger for this RWC. My preference is Piatau on the bench. So I wouldn't make changes.

12. Sonny Bill Williams it's not hating, I don't think he should be starting for the All Blacks. When Nonu was in bad form in 2012 - SBW was the best 12 option we had. However he hasn't impressed at the Chiefs, I thought his game against Argentina was pretty average despite the rave reviews. He doesn't break the line, his option taking has consistently been suspect, and he doesn't do things with a great deal of pace. His defense isn't bad, nor is his work at the breakdown, but for me Nonu is the better player and in better form.

13. I don't want to see Conrad Smith go anywhere. The "he's too old" thing I think is a load of crock. When he has had the ball he has looked to have plenty of pace and runs hard and straightens as usual. It seems missing Jessie Kreil in a tackle is all it takes to get dropped after consistently being one of the ABs best players. Tackling at 90% in Super Rugby would indicate his defence is fine, especially when the suggested replacement in Fekitoa tackled at 72%. Which leads me onto the most important thing, Fekitoa hasn't had enough game time or shown an ability to organize defenses. He's a good player - but people are expecting him to replace a player who is in the team for a set of core skills that Fekitoa hasn't demonstrated he has - and just hope for the best. I would understand maybe some of the falls if Fekitoa has come on the field and been a game changer, but it hasn't happened yet.

14. So my one break in selecting new players is Nehe Milner-Skudder. I would either have him or Piatau starting with the other on the bench. NMS looked very good while he was on the field in tough conditions. He isn't a player with obvious shortcoming either. With no Naholo I'm very happy for NMS to be selected, even at the expense of Jane (although better if it was Dagg).

15. Keep Ben Smith at 15. Drop Dagg, he has shown no form in several years and is a liability.

So if we are to play the strongest team against Australia next week I would go with:

1. Wyatt Crockett
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Daniel Carter
11. Julian Savea
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Nehe Milner-Skudder
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Tony Woodcock
18. Nepo Laulala
19. James Broadhurst
20. Sam Cane
21. Tj Peranara
22. Beuden Barrett
23. Charles Piatau

What I think is most important (and the reason why we lost) is that players are simply more clinical, our back-line moves are less convoluted/better executed, and we put a lot more pressure on the breakdown. Generally we have been content to whether the storm on defense until the opposition make a mistake, in which we launch a counter attack/set piece. We can't rely on that. No need to panic though, we just need to do better. This isn't differenct from 2011.

Good sensible and well reasoned post with which I totally agree!

 

[austingtir]

Jeez la Wheeze, you really do have a chip on your shoulder regarding Wayne Barnes. Get over it. You play to the ref, and the Wallabies did this better than the ABs on the night. ABs also got away with slowing the ball down illegally at times during the match. Two examples in the 2nd half were: Kaino lying on the wrong side of the ruck and then failed to get out of the way, whilst still lying on the ground on the wrong side, he sticks his hand out to impede Nick Phipps, who then threw a wild pass to Foley, who had to touch down in the Wallabies try area, after being tackled by Read. The second, in the lead up to the White scored the try, McCaw did exactly the same, again got cleaned out at the ruck but then was lying on the wrong side of the ruck and whilst still lying on the wrong side, tried to impede White with his hand and then stuck it out casually to try and impede him passing.

Of course refs get swayed by the home crowd, they are human at the end of the day. No different to Joubert being swayed by the home crowd in 2011 RWC final.

Who is to say the ABs won't have WB refereeing another game for them in the knock out stages of the RWC?

He's just a **** reff man end of story. He's far to pedantic in certain areas. Look at the second carter failed kickoff restart that one was BS. It went the 10. That one lead directly to a wallaby try with the compounding AB errors and Barnes compounding that further with an Australian advantage for some weak as infringement.

Australia were all over every ruck all night Hooper, Pocock and Moore were also lying all over the show among others. Id challenge anyone to find a clip of hooper making a steal off us without putting his hands on the ground in a bridge style before pinching the ball he did it every time that I saw.

As I said if we thrash them this weekend how do you explain that? were we **** two years in a row in sydney... really?? The reffing in the draw last year was just as pathetic as this game imo and thats no coincidence. That Sydney ground is either a magnet for flakey refs or the crowd is winning Australia games on their own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8liiINsrbw

12:20 Pocock doesnt enter through the gate holds on and flops onto the ground gets penalty his way.
14:34 Pocock again. Milner skudder no opportunity at all to place the ball. (this is a pet peeve of mine about the game in general).
16:25 Matt giteau. Same thing again not allowing NMS to place the ball. Giteau has his hand all over the ball while lying in an offside position on the ground.
16:47 Pocock slowing our ruck ball down. Looks illegal to me. Directly after the Giteau one.
***Sekope Kepu sinbin for not retreating on the A Smith tap and go.
21:15 Pocock straight down bridging to protect the ball. Illegal. No chance of a contest whatsoever.
21:42 Pocock that looks illegal same again. Someone correct me if im wrong...
33:37 Hooper no time to place the ball and Hoopers head is like two inches off the ground theres no way he's not proping the ground on his hands or elbow or something.

So thats my quick look at the first half really just watched hooper and pocock at the breakdown im sure theres plenty more. Damn near everything Pocock did was borderline or highly illegal.

So dont lecture me about going on about the Ref unless you can prove otherwise.

 

[Mcfadden]

I pretty much agree again with Nick. I thought about it today and the only change that springs out at me is to give Crockett a start. I previously defended Woody last week, so maybe I was wrong in a way. What I said about him doing the basics well and being less risky in a tight World Cup Final where success will hinge on penalties pretty much stands though. I was making a very specific point there. I think this is a different type of setting and Crockett, although he has his shortcomings with the set piece, is pretty mobile around the field for a big man and always has been.

Not bothered about who starts on the other wing. Skudder or Piutau have both warranted further selections. I'd like to see more of Charles, because I think if we got to the major knock out stages of the WC he'd have that extra edge of experience, so might as well get him warmed up.

Bagging Coles is dumb. What about all the good work he did just the previous match?

I have thought about Sam Cane a lot. I don't think I'd moan if he starts at 7 and McCaw at 6 this weekend. Not saying this should be our combo full time throughout the World Cup, but unless this pack can magically get faster then we need another specialist there, because Pocock is just a freak.

Julian Savea is awesome, but I think he needs to seriously step up. This isn't based on one match and me going all ballistic. It was recognized even by Hansen before last week. He's another guy who probably needs game time though. So point chopping, changing, chopping, changing.

I agree with Nick about Romano in a way. But Broadhurst also has the issue of running upright. If anyone's going to replace Romano I'd pick Thrush. Like you though Nick, my preference WOULD have been for Tuipolotu.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

He's just a **** reff man end of story. He's far to pedantic in certain areas. Look at the second carter failed kickoff restart that one was BS. It went the 10. That one lead directly to a wallaby try with the compounding AB errors and Barnes compounding that further with an Australian advantage for some weak as infringement.

Australia were all over every ruck all night Hooper, Pocock and Moore were also lying all over the show among others. Id challenge anyone to find a clip of hooper making a steal off us without putting his hands on the ground in a bridge style before pinching the ball he did it every time that I saw.

As I said if we thrash them this weekend how do you explain that? were we **** two years in a row in sydney... really?? The reffing in the draw last year was just as pathetic as this game imo and thats no coincidence. That Sydney ground is either a magnet for flakey refs or the crowd is winning Australia games on their own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8liiINsrbw

12:20 Pocock doesnt enter through the gate holds on and flops onto the ground gets penalty his way.
14:34 Pocock again. Milner skudder no opportunity at all to place the ball. (this is a pet peeve of mine about the game in general).
16:25 Matt giteau. Same thing again not allowing NMS to place the ball. Giteau has his hand all over the ball while lying in an offside position on the ground.
16:47 Pocock slowing our ruck ball down. Looks illegal to me. Directly after the Giteau one.
***Sekope Kepu sinbin for not retreating on the A Smith tap and go.
21:15 Pocock straight down bridging to protect the ball. Illegal. No chance of a contest whatsoever.
21:42 Pocock that looks illegal same again. Someone correct me if im wrong...
33:37 Hooper no time to place the ball and Hoopers head is like two inches off the ground theres no way he's not proping the ground on his hands or elbow or something.

So thats my quick look at the first half really just watched hooper and pocock at the breakdown im sure theres plenty more. Damn near everything Pocock did was borderline or highly illegal.

So dont lecture me about going on about the Ref unless you can prove otherwise.

What about the two instances I pointed out with Kaino https://youtu.be/T-MXX9SLk2I?t=9m12s and McCaw https://youtu.be/T-MXX9SLk2I?t=39m27s illegally slowing ruck ball down, both pretty blatant? Both of them not penalised. You ***** about Barnes letting Australia get away with slowing the ball down illegally, but turn a blind eye when the ABs were getting away with it and not rolling away. At least Barnes was consistent to both sides.

I also like how you ignore Joubert's reffing in the RWC 2011 final. So it's okay in your book when the ABs get away with not being penalised for illegally slowing ruck ball, but god forbid if it's the other way round.

Class A hypocrite.

 

[smartcooky]

THIS. I honestly think Barnes had alot more influence on the result of this game than many think.

Jeez la Wheeze, you really do have a chip on your shoulder regarding Wayne Barnes. Get over it.

This got me thinking that perhaps I need to dig through some results and put some numbers on this.

Since Wayne Barnes started his international career in 2006, he has refereed the All Blacks eight times

2007 v France (lost)
2008 v Scotland (won)
2010 v Ireland (won)
2011 v Australia (lost)
2013 v France (won)
2014 v Wales (won)
2014 v South Africa (lost)
2015 v Australia (lost)

That is a 50% win/loss record; 36% below their overall record over that period and the worst record with any referee.
The All Blacks have never won a Tri-Nations or Rugby Championship match that was refereed by Wayne Barnes (0 & 3)

The next is George Clancy, 3 losses from 7 games (57%)

Here are the full stats for all the current referees (not retired and still still on the Elite Referees Panel)

PS: Not implying anything, just putting some facts on the table. People can draw their own conclusions.

 

[nickdnz]

Nick how can we keep the same loose forward trio if we're so poor at the breakdown lately? We're not getting numbers to the ruck and when we do we're not cleaning them out. Kaino has been missing this season. He's ghosting through games and we're losing criminal ball because of it. You made 1 change to the forwards where we are hurting the most, the backline is fine apart form 1st 5 and 2nd 5 is questionable at times. Cane, Todd and Ardie have all been better than Jerome.

Well a few things: 1. I think you are being overly harsh on Kaino. On Super Rugby form - he may not have stood out as you may have hoped - but I don't think anyone from the Blues really stood out. He was a part of a pack going backwards, and yet his stats don't indicate any weaknesses. He was good in the lineout, carried a reasonable amount, scored a few tries. He spent large portions of the season injured (maybe why he was a ghost on the field), but I don't think he was bad by any stretch. As for this Rugby Championship: He's actually been one of the most accurate players. It's surprising he is getting negative attention. He was the only All Black in the starting lineup who didn't miss a tackle. In fact he has made 100% of his 23 tackles in two games played this Championship. Only two players made more tackles than Kaino on Saturday, McCaw (14 tackles, 1 miss) and Read (15 tackles, 2 miss). However we could replace Kaino with Messam, who has 3 misses in 66 minutes played...

In regards to 'how can we keep the same forwards if we're getting beaten in the breakdown', well that's what I was trying to answer earlier. I don't believe it is that our players aren't good at breakdown work: it is that we are employing a drift defense and employing a general policy not to commit numbers to the ruck. For the last few seasons we have been relying on very, very solid defense preventing players from gaining a great deal of territory and eventually forcing them into mistakes where we can counter attack from turnover ball (or a set piece). However we rarely commit more than two players at anyone time in a ruck. Australia on the other hand had a very good rush defense, in which once the tackle is made they can commit several players from either side of the ruck. And it was very effective (and not for the first time).

2. The second point is that Cane/Todd/Savea are all openside flankers. Kaino is a blindside flanker. Yes the experiment with Australia worked nicely, but to be honest if I was to swap a player in our loose-forwards who isn't doing his role well enough, it wouldn't be our blindside for an openside, it would be for our openside who isn't doing enough at openside. McCaw isn't quite as fast to the breakdown or as accurate as he used to be. When you hear Steve Hansen talk about McCaw these days he talks about how he has adapted with the game to "be good in the lineout, a hard ball carrier" etc - which is what we have for years made fun of England for with their "6.5's". In essence it is an openside who isn't quite as effective over the ball as they should be. I wouldn't move McCaw to 6 for the same reason. He's not a great ball carrier, he's an alright one. He isn't super physical in the contact (or even quite as accurate in the tackle). Anyway my overall point is I agree Kaino isn't in career high form - but I don't particularly like any options to replace him - and he is at least accurate at what he was doing on Saturday, which is one of the few players you could possibly say that about. What we ultimately need to do is review our tactics, which likely means committing more players to the breakdown.

Julian Savea is awesome, but I think he needs to seriously step up. This isn't based on one match and me going all ballistic. It was recognized even by Hansen before last week. He's another guy who probably needs game time though. So point chopping, changing, chopping, changing. I agree with Nick about Romano in a way. But Broadhurst also has the issue of running upright. If anyone's going to replace Romano I'd pick Thrush. Like you though Nick, my preference WOULD have been for Tuipolotu.

Fair point on Broadhurt and Romano. I suppose one of the few differences between their upright running is that Broadhurst has the skills to look for the offload once he breaks the advantage line. Romano has no skills and generally doesn't get past the advantage line. That said I couldn't say for sure Broadhurst will be getting past the advantage line with the defenses at international level.

In terms of Savea - I thought he was pretty good in Super Rugby. His defense was the easiest thing that went wrong - he was used as a kick chaser all season. As we saw again on the weekend, he tends to look for the big smash on the up and unders, and as a result is fairly easily stepped. That was a big, big defensive problem in his game which contributed to some pretty terrible statistics.

In terms of his work-rate though: He scored 8 tries, made the 10th highest number of carries of any player, was second in clean breaks, third in defenders beaten and third in metres made. Doesn't really point to an ineffective or lazy player. Keep in mind this was Savea's first game back. He wasn't blockbusting - but he still made the second most metres of any All Black behind NMS. He still had a clean break and beat 4 defenders. It may be disappointing he didn't bulldoze as much as we probably hoped, but it's not like he was working with a great deal of quality ball either. Within the context of having an asthma attack a few weeks earlier - I certainly don't see any need for alarm. Again, last season he was nominated for player of the year. I feel some players are keen to throw the baby, the bath and the kitchen skink out with the bathwater based on one poor match.

 

[smartcooky]

What about the two instances I pointed out with Kaino https://youtu.be/T-MXX9SLk2I?t=9m12s and McCaw https://youtu.be/T-MXX9SLk2I?t=39m27s illegally slowing ruck ball down, both pretty blatant? Both of them not penalised. You ***** about Barnes letting Australia get away with slowing the ball down illegally, but turn a blind eye when the ABs were getting away with it and not rolling away. At least Barnes was consistent to both sides.

I also like how you ignore Joubert's reffing in the RWC 2011 final. So it's okay in your book when the ABs get away with not being penalised for illegally slowing ruck ball, but god forbid if it's the other way round..

Newsflash, hold the phone

Openside Flankers cheat!

(pictures at 10)
​

 

[ncurd]

@smartcooky

Looking at that I'd be more worried about Owens/Joubert records with the AB's than Barnes', whilst the AB's are a great team their win record in that period is still extremely high especially considering how many games they don't just steamroller a team away.

 

[Kiwi_]

Kainos defense is good. But we no longer have a ball carrier in the looseys or mobility to get to the breakdown, Kaino was non-existent at the breakdown and won no ball, if he's making that many tackles, why's he not winning the pill? Ardie Savea could cure both of these issues or at least be an option.