[2015 Six Nations] Wales vs England (Round 1)

[Peat]

While I don't disagree with this, as the worn out old saying goes: You can only play what's in front of you.
Both Charteris and Davies are fit so the Wales coaches classed ball as their first choice for that game.

Fair on the first point.

Second point points more to Gatland being a moron (or rather placing favour in native DC players as PD points out) than Ball actually being worth first choice though

Yaboyjj - I rate all of the guys you've named and doubt the Kiwis panic at seeing any of them played tbh. Come to think of it, POC/Toner/Henderson/Tuohy/Ryan is a pretty strong roster; and if Kellock's not retired from international rugby, one of him and Hamilton is Scotland's 5th choice, and that's not a bad place to be either. Don't know quite enough but France's top five look handy enough as well.

The more I think about it, the more 5 international class locks sounds pretty standard, tbh.

I would suggest converting some to backrowers, but we're not exactly short there either. It's a good time for England fans, but you get the impression that there will be great players with capless careers at the end of this. (Like, Tom Savage is in danger of this happening.)

Virtually the definition of good times in a way that. Wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few players follow Tom Price's route tbh.

Also, with the exception of Itoje and Launchbury, I don't see any of them being international blindsides really.

 

[j'nuh]

Maybe we mean different things by carrying like an 8.

To me, it means carrying regularly and carrying in the midfield/wider out as opposed to close in to the ruck.

And I don't think he can do it for 50-60 minutes. I just don't think he can do it. I think if he could, he would be doing so, and he's not. But after he's done pumping his legs in the tight, he's just not in the right position to get into places to carry like an 8. I don't think he's got the pace left in his legs at that moment to get there. Not with the extra weight he's carrying himself.

I agree he's got massive physicality and does well in contact and it would be great to get the most out of it. I'd really like to see him carry more; in his five recent English starts, he's only had the most carries of the tight five once. The other 4 games, there's been at least two other tight five members with more carries. That's mad when he's possibly the best tight five carrier we've got. But I just don't think it can be done with him carrying like an 8.

If you want someone carrying like an 8, I'd far rather pick a 6 or 7 that can do that, and rely on the tight five to dominate the tight enough to allow said player to drift wide; not saying tight five guys can't get out there, but you're looking for freaks really, guys who are immensely powerful without much extra muscle, and imo, you're also looking for guys that aren't taking the brunt of the set piece for that. And Attwood's the guy taking that brunt.

I should have said, when I say "second 8", I mean someone that maybe makes ~1/2 of the carries of the 8. The 8 is specialised for the role, so they should still be doing the vast majority of the work. I just think that it would be situationally useful for us to have another player in the XV that could make the same type of carry if called upon. Haskell/Robshaw can make tighter carries, but I don't think that they are strong enough to make the type of carries an 8 would. This is where Ewers would be fantastic to have.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

*cough Beaumont cough*
Already ahead of Matthews and Stooke as a lock (that's the position he was called up to/traveled with the saxons squad as) and I reckon he'd do a job at 8, if not internationally then at Saxons level for sure.
Really is a freakishly good player and still improving with every game.

 

[Peat]

I should have said, when I say "second 8", I mean someone that maybe makes ~1/2 of the carries of the 8. The 8 is specialised for the role, so they should still be doing the vast majority of the work. I just think that it would be situationally useful for us to have another player in the XV that could make the same type of carry if called upon. Haskell/Robshaw can make tighter carries, but I don't think that they are strong enough to make the type of carries an 8 would. This is where Ewers would be fantastic to have.

I'd certainly agree the more people who can pop up in the same sort of spots and have the same sort of effectiveness as Morgan when needed, the better, but I don't think Attwood is the man. I stick by my belief that he simply can't get there often enough and would also add that I don't think he has the acceleration and footwork to really exploit the situation either.

And I was delighted with the strength, determination and footwork shown by Hask in the carry on Friday and have no issue with him popping him up there.

However, what this really sounds like, is a clarion call for...

 

[Maverick1987]

Don't think so (NZ have Rettalick, Whitelock, Romano, Tuipolotu,...Thrush/Bird?). It's certainly a golden era in English rugby in terms of the tight 5... to think we were playing the likes of Borthwick and Botha not that long ago.

I've just been watching clips of Eastmond and Wade on youtube- I still kinda want to see these guys given a go, despite their obvious drawbacks. The romantic in me still yearns for a back-line of: Simpson, Ford, Wade, Eastmond, Joseph/Tuilagi, Roko, Watson
to be given one game; the thought of this present England pack, delivering quick ball that that back-line, has me salivating at the carnage that would ensue (until the other team has the ball that is).
The Wade situation is still vexing me a bit, given the ball in a bit of space he is perhaps the most lethal finisher in world rugby- is there no way we can accommodate this guy in the current set up, or are his defensive frailties/kick chase weaknesses too severe? It just seems such a waste of talent. (not that I'm unhappy with the current choices)

It's too easy to watch videos on YouTube of Wade and think he should be in . I might try to make a video of all Wades defensive mess ups and see if we still feel the same .... I'd rather have Rokoduguni there tbh . However I'm more than happy as it is . My preferred choice would be

11. Yarde
14. Rokoduguni
15. Watson

That's a good mix of power, pace and in the air prowess .

But like I say I'm not fussed if Lancaster leaves it as it is especially if Brown starts to show last 6Ns form again

 

[Captain Robshaw]

I know what you mean, at the very least he's got to be the sort of guy you have around and bring in when the need arises. If there were 15 minutes to go and you needed a try, you'd want him as an option.

 

[goodNumber10]

Wade as wonderful an attacker as he is needs to do some serious work on positioning and defence.

I'd quite like to See 11: May, 14: Roko 15: Watson/Nowell

 

[thechosenfamily]

I know what you mean, at the very least he's got to be the sort of guy you have around and bring in when the need arises. If there were 15 minutes to go and you needed a try, you'd want him as an option.

IMHO I believe this is the way to use Wade, as an impact sub, last 15mins, defense tired, let him loose.

I have watched him a lot and he is lacking in defense in some areas but I think he's got to be worth a run. or am I deluded and he is a luxury item if we play him that way?

 

[goodNumber10]

IMHO I believe this is the way to use Wade, as an impact sub, last 15mins, defense tired, let him loose.

I have watched him a lot and he is lacking in defense in some areas but I think he's got to be worth a run. or am I deluded and he is a luxury item if we play him that way?

Personally i wouldn't' but well we accommodate over weak defenders so why not Wade?

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

It's pretty hilarious that James Gaskell has decided his future is at lock, since this is where he is most likely to entertain his international aspirations . Not going to happen, tho he's been excellent this season.

I'd be interested to see some stats about the best carrying locks at international level from each country.

For my money, Toner is one of the best tight carriers at lock. Richie Gray was good when not playing like a moron.
Then, someone like Launchbury gets himself into great positions for carrying around the field, but isn't so good in the tight. Good to have a balance - Attwood and Launchbury is that balance.
But I agree, while its unrealistic to think that Attwood could carry like an 8, I'd like to see him carry more in midfield.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Did we come to a conclusion on Attwood's "try"? Should it have stood? Was it just a well-run hard line by Easter and the words of Welsh management team and players in the ears of the ref?

 

[goodNumber10]

Did we come to a conclusion on Attwood's "try"? Should it have stood? Was it just a well-run hard line by Easter and the words of Welsh management team and players in the ears of the ref?

well I do think it's crossing, but the try should have stood because the TMO can only go back 2 phases unless for foulplay (AFAIAW)

 

[Thingimubob]

You two are far too cute especially considering how much you're hounding the Welsh try in the other thread...

 

[goodNumber10]

You two are far too cute �� especially considering how much you're hounding the Welsh try in the other thread...

is that aimed at me?

I've hardly said anything in the other thread...

 

[Thingimubob]

is that aimed at me?

I've hardly said anything in the other thread...

Eh more at LiRFC, but basically my point is, if the Welsh try "isn't" a try, then 100% Attwood's definitely isn't, even hypothetically.

It's crossing, and I can't say I've ever heard on the two phase limit for the TMO?

 

[goodNumber10]

Eh more at LiRFC, but basically my point is, if the Welsh try "isn't" a try, then 100% Attwood's definitely isn't, even hypothetically.

It's crossing, and I can't say I've ever heard on the two phase limit for the TMO?

I said it's crossing mate, i'm agreeing with you... the comment about the TMO and the number of phases is off the back of what has been said in the media this week (can't find actual protocol online)

 

[Maverick1987]

To be fair I don't think the crossing was an immediate reason why Attwood scored a try . It's not as if Easter pulled a defender out of the way so someone could waltz through the gap it had created . The Welsh defence had ages to get themselves back in position . It's a try imo but I don't really mind that much, it's far less crossing/blocking than the Farrell try against Australia a couple of years back when Hartley ran the line but who cares . Didn't affect the game much anyway

 

[RedruthRFC]

I'm slightly confused by the "move on" posts. New points are still being raised and I still feel like I'm improving my understanding by reading the thread - surely this is the aim of such threads.

FWIW, I discussed the incident with a referee on Friday night, my opinion at the time was that although the offence didn't have a material impact on the try being scored (or not), if the offence was spotted in real time, then England wouldn't have had possession and wouldn't have scored. I did qualify that by saying "as long as the TMO is consistent as to how far back he goes, in terms of either phases, time or simply as far as the last dead ball situation".

I said it's crossing mate, i'm agreeing with you... the comment about the TMO and the number of phases is off the back of what has been said in the media this week (can't find actual protocol online)

I can't find the document either, but this article dated November 2014 mentions the two phases. Obviously it may be out of date by now:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...maddening-and-opaque-TMO-is-not-resolved.html

If the "two phase rule" still stands, then I would say that the TMO acted outside his jurisdiction (the ball carrier was tackled and went to ground twice after the offence). The other point based on what Moore says, is that (assuming it's still up to date) the infringement must "be CLEAR and OBVIOUS and in the context of materiality". I would argue that the TMO ignored this constraint too - the player obstructed by Easter was released almost instantly and had moved to the openside in a position that enabled him to put in a tackle on Ford forcing him to offload in the phase before the try that wasn't.

 

[Peat]

It's pretty hilarious that James Gaskell has decided his future is at lock, since this is where he is most likely to entertain his international aspirations . Not going to happen, tho he's been excellent this season.

I'd be interested to see some stats about the best carrying locks at international level from each country.

For my money, Toner is one of the best tight carriers at lock. Richie Gray was good when not playing like a moron.
Then, someone like Launchbury gets himself into great positions for carrying around the field, but isn't so good in the tight. Good to have a balance - Attwood and Launchbury is that balance.
But I agree, while its unrealistic to think that Attwood could carry like an 8, I'd like to see him carry more in midfield.

Ah, Gaskell. Shame he's so scrawny or he'd have been getting caps back along with Lawes. Given Lancaster's desire for athleticism and lineout jumpers ahead of grunt he's not a bad shout to achieve something in an even worse injury crisis, imo, weirdly enough.

 

[Thingimubob]

Basically my point is, I feel like there's a bit of a double standard of saying "the ref initially missed it, try should stand" then saying the Welsh try shouldn't have stood because the ref missed infringements at the scrum.

Honestly, I'm not that bothered, not trying to call anyone out on it, just seems a bit daft is all.