[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[chippieolamus]

Hopefully their mammies and daddies will put the kids away to sleep shortly!


Now... for a real row... here is the Amiga500 list of Irish and English players 2015 who I feel are being OVERRATED.


Rory Best - Throwing can be very iffy
Dan Cole - Didn't do much on Sunday against a supposedly weak scrum did he?
POC - not the best carrier or passer of the ball the 2nd row has ever seen.
Lawes - Featuring on rugbydump for a few hard hits every season does not make you a great player. Has been a part of several English packs that have been bullied about the pitch.
SOB - He's still being rated on how he performed 2 years ago.
POM - Does he stop tackling before he reaches 10 in case he runs out of fingers to count them on?
Haskell - Mr Anonymous on Sunday
Vunipola - A number 8 scared of a Rob Kearney tackle?
Ben Youngs - Flap flap flap.
George Ford - He's a kid. Give him time to find his feet before hyping him.
John Joesph - He's a kid too. Give him time to find his feet before hyping him.
Zebo - Played very well at weekend. But great players do it consistently. He needs to back it up before being allowed to hop off the Amiga500 OVERRATED list.
Bowe - Is making up for line breaks and picking slashing runs with endeavour.
Tuilagi - Can't pass, won't pass. One trick ponies tend to be found out sooner rather than later.


Note, this list is not comprehensive, there are others.

In terms of english ones:
Cole: Had a poor day in the scrum on Sunday but had been improving there before his injury. He's great in the loose though - did you not see him headbutt Healy out of the way?
Lawes: No. Disagree. Great tackler (as you point out), not only makes big hits when needed but doesn't miss normal tackles often. Also gets through a shedload of work in the loose, has become a great lineout caller and solid in the scrum.
Haskell: To a degree, yes. Not consistent enough and often gives away silly penalties.
Vunipola: Was the best English player on Sunday imo - bit of a one trick pony but it seems like he's developed his all-round game since getting dropped for Morgan. Also what Kearney tackle are you referring to?
Ben Youngs: Most English fans agree he's not great tbh.
Ford and Joseph: Fair assessment.
Tuilagi:He can pass he just chooses not too (not sure why though haha). Very destructive, will be better once we can find him a decent partner who suits him (Slade?). Regards the one trick pony comment - he's already had 25 caps and hasn't been found out yet.

 

[McTallshort]

Amiga- POC, POM and SOB overrated? wow going straight to hell for that!

 

[Amiga500]

Amiga- POC, POM and SOB overrated? wow going straight to hell for that!

Great players all, but some way short of the best in the world in their position right now. Not that the one-eyed would countenance that for a second.

 

[profitius]

Great players all, but some way short of the best in the world in their position right now. Not that the one-eyed would countenance that for a second.

Its a miracle Ireland manage to win any match! :lol:

 

[Lomu]

To be fair he has a point about some of the Irish lads. SOB hasn't hit peaks of two years ago. POC is in the team for more reasons than ability. Leadership being the main one. Tuilagi and Basteteaux top two centres in Europe.

Footnote: glad Schmidt has had sack to close door on darcy and some other irish players who have long since had their day.

 

[munstermuffin]

Hopefully their mammies and daddies will put the kids away to sleep shortly!


Now... for a real row... here is the Amiga500 list of Irish and English players 2015 who I feel are being OVERRATED.


Rory Best - Throwing can be very iffy
Dan Cole - Didn't do much on Sunday against a supposedly weak scrum did he?
POC - not the best carrier or passer of the ball the 2nd row has ever seen.
Lawes - Featuring on rugbydump for a few hard hits every season does not make you a great player. Has been a part of several English packs that have been bullied about the pitch.
SOB - He's still being rated on how he performed 2 years ago.
POM - Does he stop tackling before he reaches 10 in case he runs out of fingers to count them on?
Haskell - Mr Anonymous on Sunday
Vunipola - A number 8 scared of a Rob Kearney tackle?
Ben Youngs - Flap flap flap.
George Ford - He's a kid. Give him time to find his feet before hyping him.
John Joesph - He's a kid too. Give him time to find his feet before hyping him.
Zebo - Played very well at weekend. But great players do it consistently. He needs to back it up before being allowed to hop off the Amiga500 OVERRATED list.
Bowe - Is making up for line breaks and picking slashing runs with endeavour.
Tuilagi - Can't pass, won't pass. One trick ponies tend to be found out sooner rather than later.


Note, this list is not comprehensive, there are others.

I'll just comment on Irish guys as I'm not in position to comment effectively on English.

Will start with POM as he's been hot topic.
His role isn't as traditional 6 but his tackle count is growing and in a whole package I wouldn't say he's overrated. But guess it's like marmite with him.
Best. Yes his throwing isn't beat but he's never been seen as 1 of best in world and I think the way he's seen and rated are accurate. He's a fine scrummager.
POC. Your 100% right. Paulie has never been a great passer and usually when you see Paulie carrying a lot of ball it means we are in trouble. He's not a carrier but what makes him a class apart is set piece and his work around tight. He studies lineouts to the detail. I'd say him and Schmidt are like 2 nerds every camp.
SOB. I think while your right he's rated on 2 years ago any comeback shows he still has every bit of talent. He's a freak of nature and I think he's a world class guy. Even on his departure on Sunday he showed it.
Zebo. Well not overrated as he's nowhere near world class. He's working hard and on top in a squad battle but everyone fit he's probably behind Bowe, Trimble, Earls and Fitzgearld. He's playing very well consistently now for both Munster and Ireland and while I slated Schmidt last year for way he dealt with Zebo. I'm happy to say I was wrong and Schmidt has made Zebo aware that he has superb talent but needs the workrate too and now results are paying off.
Bowe I think is world class. He's lost a yard in pace but has made up for it with pure intelligence. He knows when to enter line and what line to hit.


On a separate note in past 4 years. The 6 backs (excluding Murray) that's started and Madigan and Jones have all played for Ireland/Club for a combined 80mins or more at 15. So effectively we had 8 players covering 15 last Sunday.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Schmidt is the man right now, the guy is red hot and can do no wrong.
Kudos to his coaching ability, and to the Irish lads who played to a level i have never seen from Ireland before, real classy professional performance across the board.
England were not rubbish, a ten point differential across the 80 minutes shows how competitive they were.
Ireland were more organised , disciplined and clinical but England were still bloody tough to beat.
England were caught out in the loose by having a back row trio of three lumps and no sniffer is always going to be tough against a very committed and mobile irish pack.

My big disappointment from the game was that Lancaster didn't have the foresight to bring on Danny Cipriani when young Ford had been struggling for 60 minutes. Black mark against Lancaster for that gross error

 

[munstermuffin]

What I like is Schmidt is shrewd in picking his national team coaching staff. He's pulled a master stroke getting Easterby. And way they supposedly combine coaches to design plays is intelligent. For example he supposedly has coaches sit together eg Easterby with Murphy to do a play that has input of forwards and skills.

 

[Maverick1987]

Schmidt is the man right now, the guy is red hot and can do no wrong.
Kudos to his coaching ability, and to the Irish lads who played to a level i have never seen from Ireland before, real classy professional performance across the board.
England were not rubbish, a ten point differential across the 80 minutes shows how competitive they were.
Ireland were more organised , disciplined and clinical but England were still bloody tough to beat.
England were caught out in the loose by having a back row trio of three lumps and no sniffer is always going to be tough against a very committed and mobile irish pack.

My big disappointment from the game was that Lancaster didn't have the foresight to bring on Danny Cipriani when young Ford had been struggling for 60 minutes. Black mark against Lancaster for that gross error

Fair assessment overall imo . Can't say I've agreed with jones boy too often but I'm glad this will be a short conversation unlike the POM one lol

 

[Tony Manx]

My big disappointment from the game was that Lancaster didn't have the foresight to bring on Danny Cipriani when young Ford had been struggling for 60 minutes. Black mark against Lancaster for that gross error

I really like Lancaster but for his over cautious attitude ( he took ages to pick Ford and only did when Farrell injured and Myler over Cips really?) and his use of subs. I think Saturday was the first game where, apart from injury, you could feel that they were not preordained and yet still did not throw Cips on!

I am not sure who you would get to do a better job and be as self effacing and presentable to the media!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Its a miracle Ireland manage to win any match! :lol:

You don't need star players to win anything. Look at Saracens, we managed to get to the Heineken Cup final and Premiership Final last year but we were no where near the top 2 teams in Europe. We just had the right players for the system that we use, I mean even Chris Ashton looks good for us ! Schmidt and McCall are both very tactically astute and get the best out of the players at their disposal.

 

[munstermuffin]

You don't need star players to win anything. Look at Saracens, we managed to get to the Heineken Cup final and Premiership Final last year but we were no where near the top 2 teams in Europe. We just had the right players for the system that we use, I mean even Chris Ashton looks good for us ! Schmidt and McCall are both very tactically astute and get the best out of the players at their disposal.

Not been smart but difference is Saracrns had bit of luck on route to finals. Schmidt has a lot of trophies to Saracens don't and like (excluding Clermont game) they were extremely lucky rest of way. Schmidt has been consistent and wins tournaments over longer period. Saracens haven't much to show. You do need star players. Schmidt has had them do key things in every triumph he's had

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

You don't need star players to win anything. Look at Saracens, we managed to get to the Heineken Cup final and Premiership Final last year but we were no where near the top 2 teams in Europe. We just had the right players for the system that we use, I mean even Chris Ashton looks good for us ! Schmidt and McCall are both very tactically astute and get the best out of the players at their disposal.

Yeh just look at all the trophies in the Saracens trophy case

FYI Ashton was just as good in the Saints setup.

 

[big ginger 8]

Apparently we won 116 of 117 rucks, that's crazy. Even if we did get away with cheating in 83.3% of them apparently....

 

[TheSaffycen]

Not been smart but difference is Saracrns had bit of luck on route to finals. Schmidt has a lot of trophies to Saracens don't and like (excluding Clermont game) they were extremely lucky rest of way. Schmidt has been consistent and wins tournaments over longer period. Saracens haven't much to show. You do need star players. Schmidt has had them do key things in every triumph he's had

Sorry I meant to say any match. Yes we were lucky that we beat Ulster, we smashed Clermont and became unstuck against Toulon, just like yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeh just look at all the trophies in the Saracens trophy case

FYI Ashton was just as good in the Saints setup.

Yeah you're right. I remember Ashton getting the record number of European tries in a season when saints got to the final as well.....
And I'll have you know that our trophy case smells of rich mahogany and that we are really quite a big deal.

 

[munstermuffin]

Sorry I meant to say any match. Yes we were lucky that we beat Ulster, we smashed Clermont and became unstuck against Toulon, just like yourself.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah you're right. I remember Ashton getting the record number of European tries in a season when saints got to the final as well.....
And I'll have you know that our trophy case smells of rich mahogany and that we are really quite a big deal.

Agreed as in Munster were same in all pre Hi are alloys still for sale? What is condition of them, any cracks or welds and what are tyres like. Ever down Limerick way?glory years we had no real star player at time. Yes guys like ROG grew to be 1 as did POC. But in 00-04/05 we had good players some would say excellent but not bit of magic like for example. When Leinster won HEC - Elsom 1 year turned up and well what he did was scary.
Against Northampton Sexton was the spark and well other stuff like when they beat Cermont in Semi in France Kearney with drop goal but more so at end Thorn (I think it was) held nearly the whole 15 of Clermont up on his own try line almost single handed.

 

[profitius]

You don't need star players to win anything. Look at Saracens, we managed to get to the Heineken Cup final and Premiership Final last year but we were no where near the top 2 teams in Europe. We just had the right players for the system that we use, I mean even Chris Ashton looks good for us ! Schmidt and McCall are both very tactically astute and get the best out of the players at their disposal.

Saracens are full of internationals and they're not playing the top 2 teams in Europe every week which means they're as good or much better than their opposition.

Vern Cotter created one of the top teams in Europe but under him it looks like Scotland are heading for the wooden spoon. Why is that? Because he don't have the players. Coaches can only do so much. They need the players to carry out their gameplan. All the Irish players are technically good which is something people are overlooking. They're the opposite to the French players who struggle to pass the ball but yet everyone thinks the French players are great. The French player who did the most damage to Ireland was little Vincent Clerc.

The likes of Alex Ferguson had a few other top teams to beat to win the league. He or any other manager would not win anything with Aston Villa players.

 

[goodNumber10]

Vern Cotter created one of the best teams in Europe that never won anything.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Saracens are full of internationals and they're not playing the top 2 teams in Europe every week which means they're as good or much better than their opposition.

Vern Cotter created one of the top teams in Europe but under him it looks like Scotland are heading for the wooden spoon. Why is that? Because he don't have the players. Coaches can only do so much. They need the players to carry out their gameplan. All the Irish players are technically good which is something people are overlooking. They're the opposite to the French players who struggle to pass the ball but yet everyone thinks the French players are great. The French player who did the most damage to Ireland was little Vincent Clerc.

The likes of Alex Ferguson had a few other top teams to beat to win the league. He or any other manager would not win anything with Aston Villa players.

We wrote about this here if you're interested: http://fourballsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/scotland-vs-italy-review.html
It's a review about the Italy game that eventually goes on to say this:

In the past couple of years under Scott Johnson, Scotland seemed to make steady progress, recording wins against Italy and Ireland in the 2013 Six Nations Championship, finishing third which was their best finish since 2006. This was a fantastic result for the young side who even boasted a 9-6 win against Australia down under for the first time in 30 years. Yet where has the confidence, competence and composure gone? They seem to have taken a step back under Vern Cotter losing all three of the opening matches of this year's Six Nations. They saw a narrow defeat against France in Paris, an extremely difficult place to play and come away with a win, and also to Wales at Murrayfield, when a lack of composure in the final quarter of the game cost them the perfect revenge for their 51-3 drubbing at the Millennium last year.

There's more on the website, it was written by a guest blogger of sorts so not necessarily all my views, but it is interesting.

 

[gaston le gaff]

Vern Cotter created one of the best teams in Europe that never won anything.

to be fair they did win the Bouclier de Brennus in 2010 but lost it i think 10 times in the final, there are plenty of teams who have never won it.