[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[Jbobo]

Ireland haven't looked like losing a game after the 55 minute stage once this year, with only Australia and France looking like they could have beat them in the games they won last year, so not really. The only criticism I have of the team is they aren't as clinical as they should be, Ireland should have scores at least one more try yesterday but couldn't. It's the only area that I think would stop them from beating New Zealand where tries are definitely needed to win.

3 pretty comprehensive victories where the biggest leads have been 20, 12 and 16 points with the smallest winning margain being 7 doesn't sound as if they're letting teams back in to me. Considering the team aren't conceding tries I always feel when watching them that once they've got a lead of 8+ it's game over. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ireland not concede another try in the championship, which would certainly guarantee them the most impressive grand slam since '03. That must be their goal as well no matter what anyone in the camp says!

I personally find it more impressive to score more tries as opposed to just not conceding them. Wales 05, for example, was more impressive to me than 12.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

As for wingers, I like the idea of having One 'Looks for work' type winger, of which Nowell is one, and one 'something from nothing' winger along the lines of May & Wade.
Hartley is another pink elephant in the room... we were talking about Hartleys Mediocrity & I was suggesting that the class of a hooker is different and should be measured largely through set-piece alone. I feel rather stupid now - if Hartley's lineout continues to be as bad as that, he really does not have a future with England. However, I suspect it's less an issue of the actual throwing and more a case of the communication between Hooker and Jumper. Who was running the lineout, Attwood or Kruis?

Kruis has impressed me too but realistically he's likely to be competing against Launchbury for the other shirt, and he ain't winning that battle. That said, Kruis & Launchbury together would make one very dynamic partnership.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I personally find it more impressive to score more tries as opposed to just not conceding them. Wales 05, for example, was more impressive to me than 12.

I meant more in a way of having high quality teams in the tournament rather than the way in which the sides won it. If Ireland when England won in '03 they beat three teams that would reach that years RWC quarter final and one semi finalist. Since then all the grand slams have had one or two easy games from the traditional top 4, '04, Wales and England were poor, '05 England were muck, '08 Ireland and France were pretty awful, '09 everyone was off the boil a wee bit, '10 France strolled it, '12 Ireland and France were below par. I think that this year we have one of the highest quality 6 nations in a while, France aren't great overall but they're proving tough to beat and play a hugely physical game, England are a good side, Wales are coming into some form just in time to meet Ireland and Italy and Scotland are no pushovers. If Ireland were to win, which is by no means certain, it would be with one of the toughest calenders, France, England and Wales in consecutive games, with none of these sides providing a gimme.

 

[Peat]

Hartley's lineout throwing is probably a blip, but his mediocrity in the loose probably isn't, and as we sit here wondering how to get go-forwards and better protect our ball, I think that's pretty vital.

And yeah, I can see Kruis and Launchbury working. Its them vs Lawes once Parling's gone - I'm afraid to see Attwood's strengths do not outweigh his weaknesses on closer inspection.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm afraid to see Attwood's strengths do not outweigh his weaknesses on closer inspection.

Bit premature perhaps? I don't know, but from what I saw yesterday he gave away stupid penalties, didn't impose himself physically in the way he usually does, obviously the lineout misfired....None of which are weaknesses per se?

Looking at the stats I'm hugely disappointed to see that Haskell conceded 3 penalties. It seems he simply can't be relied upon in pressure games to maintain discipline. 2 Against Attwood as well, though I thought it should have been 3.

On ball protection, I blame the scrum half. Ireland are notorious for identifying at breakdown and all piling through. Its hard to see it coming because generally one player rucks and the others follow, but the scrum half needs to expect it, and not dawdle in the way Youngs did on one particular occasion yesterday. I also saw Simpson fall victim to this yesterday against Gloucester.
In contrast, when was the last time someone made such an accurate decision to pour numbers at a breakdown and be rewarded with a turnover? Its another form of decision making and another area where we don't see sharp enough.

 

[ncurd]

Okay so on reflection I don't think England had a terrible game but we lost terrible at the breakdown.

Put it this way which team do you think offered the most attacking threat? I'd honestly say England whom I think overall were pretty good in defense Ireland's try was just one those perfectly placed kicks that rarely come off and nothing to terrible defensively as noted they probably wouldn't even try it if England had not conceded a penalty. England also always looked threatening in attack even though it was all over with 12mins to go you still felt they could score a try and if they did that who knows....it's unlikely to happen against an Ireland but they didn't look impervious. I think the telling stats are these.

Metres Made
Ireland 300
England 501

Clean Breaks
Ireland 3
England 10

Passes
Ireland 156
England 120

Turnovers conceded
Ireland 9
England 23

That last one coupled with ones above suggest to me England were more threatening in making meters ball in hand but kept coughing up the ball. If they had conceded turnovers close to equal to Ireland I honestly think we could be talking about different result.

Ireland were clearly the superior team but I don't think England played that badly. What Ireland did was retain the ball far better than England once they had it in hand. That led to penalties on England side in a more attacking position and more points. Sounds simple I know.

As for next game Brown if fit obviously, I'd still switch Burrell and 36 but don't think that will happen. Lawes in if he's fit enough. Apart from that pray Youngs has a good day....England have issue in they have a 9 who's consistent 100% of the time if they combined Care/Youngs problem is Lancaster has to flip a coin to determine which one it will be this week.




On commentators I have no issue with bias towards people own countries fair dues to them. I don't understand why Eddie Butler has to commentate on England matches that don't involve Wales.

 

[goodNumber10]

Okay so on reflection I don't think England had a terrible game but we lost terrible at the breakdown.

Put it this way which team do you think offered the most attacking threat? I'd honestly say England whom I think overall were pretty good in defense Ireland's try was just one those perfectly placed kicks that rarely come off and nothing to terrible defensively as noted they probably wouldn't even try it if England had not conceded a penalty. England also always looked threatening in attack even though it was all over with 12mins to go you still felt they could score a try and if they did that who knows....it's unlikely to happen against an Ireland but they didn't look impervious. I think the telling stats are these.

Metres Made
Ireland 300
England 501

Clean Breaks
Ireland 3
England 10

Passes
Ireland 156
England 120

Turnovers conceded
Ireland 9
England 23

That last one coupled with ones above suggest to me England were more threatening in making meters ball in hand but kept coughing up the ball. If they had conceded turnovers close to equal to Ireland I honestly think we could be talking about different result.

Ireland were clearly the superior team but I don't think England played that badly. What Ireland did was retain the ball far better than England once they had it in hand. That led to penalties on England side in a more attacking position and more points. Sounds simple I know.

As for next game Brown if fit obviously, I'd still switch Burrell and 36 but don't think that will happen. Lawes in if he's fit enough. Apart from that pray Youngs has a good day....England have issue in they have a 9 who's consistent 100% of the time if they combined Care/Youngs problem is Lancaster has to flip a coin to determine which one it will be this week.

The key stat that's not included there though is where on the pitch the game was played, and that absolutely favours Ireland.

england had more ball, made more passes etc.... but something like 58% of the first half was in englands Half, and an equally high rate in the second. need to break it down a bit further to red zone or not but to me that indicates Ireland played the game int he right places rather than trying to run it from everywhere.

***eDIT: SORRY MEANT TIME IN HALF:
Ireland 61% in the first half and 51% in the second - that to me indicates everything we did was in our own half.

plus Error Count is massive: 58 to England, 48 to Ireland

 

[psychic duck]

I meant more in a way of having high quality teams in the tournament rather than the way in which the sides won it. If Ireland when England won in '03 they beat three teams that would reach that years RWC quarter final and one semi finalist. Since then all the grand slams have had one or two easy games from the traditional top 4, '04, Wales and England were poor, '05 England were muck, '08 Ireland and France were pretty awful, '09 everyone was off the boil a wee bit, '10 France strolled it, '12 Ireland and France were below par. I think that this year we have one of the highest quality 6 nations in a while, France aren't great overall but they're proving tough to beat and play a hugely physical game, England are a good side, Wales are coming into some form just in time to meet Ireland and Italy and Scotland are no pushovers. If Ireland were to win, which is by no means certain, it would be with one of the toughest calenders, France, England and Wales in consecutive games, with none of these sides providing a gimme.

Of those quarter finalists Wales were enduring an all time record losing streak at that time, Scotland were utterly rank and Ireland although better than those two were pretty average. Hard to argue that was a particularly high quality tournament compared to more recent ones.

 

[Peat]

The big counter-ruck does seem to have disappeared with Wood's form. Partially coincidence at least, but...

Attwood - I'm still fuming a little about those missed tackles vs Italy. I'm still questioning a little whether he could get himself into more "Big Carry" positions. Ultimately, I'm questioning whether he does enough around the park at a low enough error rate. Maybe? He's being a little erratic and I'm backing Kruis to be less erratic going forwards and more mobile; too much less of a tight lock? Not sure. I might be wrong here.

And our ball protection has, for me, being a problem from day 1 to now, regardless of scrum-half, more or less regardless of pack make up. Which is probably coaching.

 

[ncurd]

Ireland - England
% Time in Possession
68% 1st Half 32%
51% 2nd Half 49%

% Time in Opponents Half
67% 1st Half 33%
51% 2nd Half 49%

1st half is pretty poor but I seam to remember England not really playing well first 15mins and barely saw the ball (it also contained the two terrible attacking line outs)

2nd half both teams more or less equal. As noted that doesn't includes stats within the 22 however, I'd also like to see how many of England's 23 turnovers occurred in the 22, I imagine alot.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Okay so on reflection I don't think England had a terrible game but we lost terrible at the breakdown.

Put it this way which team do you think offered the most attacking threat? I'd honestly say England whom I think overall were pretty good in defense Ireland's try was just one those perfectly placed kicks that rarely come off and nothing to terrible defensively as noted they probably wouldn't even try it if England had not conceded a penalty. England also always looked threatening in attack even though it was all over with 12mins to go you still felt they could score a try and if they did that who knows....it's unlikely to happen against an Ireland but they didn't look impervious. I think the telling stats are these.

Metres Made
Ireland 300
England 501

Clean Breaks
Ireland 3
England 10

Passes
Ireland 156
England 120

Turnovers conceded
Ireland 9
England 23

That last one coupled with ones above suggest to me England were more threatening in making meters ball in hand but kept coughing up the ball. If they had conceded turnovers close to equal to Ireland I honestly think we could be talking about different result.

Ireland were clearly the superior team but I don't think England played that badly. What Ireland did was retain the ball far better than England once they had it in hand. That led to penalties on England side in a more attacking position and more points. Sounds simple I know.

As for next game Brown if fit obviously, I'd still switch Burrell and 36 but don't think that will happen. Lawes in if he's fit enough. Apart from that pray Youngs has a good day....England have issue in they have a 9 who's consistent 100% of the time if they combined Care/Youngs problem is Lancaster has to flip a coin to determine which one it will be this week.




On commentators I have no issue with bias towards people own countries fair dues to them. I don't understand why Eddie Butler has to commentate on England matches that don't involve Wales.

I know what you mean..

The thing is, in my eyes, turning over 23 times, never regaining possession from your kicks, losing 4 of your own lineouts and conceding 13 penalties - is itself playing poorly.
It doesn't matter what crazy skill you've shown elsewhere when you have those stats

What you're saying I believe is that when we had the ball we didn't look that bad?
Yes and no... When he game broke up, when we showed a sense of urgency, I.e when we were losing with time running out, we looked alright and on occasion one of our backs had a bit of a run... however our general ball carrying and forward marshaling was abysmal.. The tight five went nowhere fast and were picked off and turned over..

I agree insofar as what will now happen is England will be written off, just as we were talked up after Wales. Its silly to think we're any weaker now because of the result, and, realistically, it was always very likely we'd lose an away game this tournament. In all likelihood, England will bounce back - the issue for myself and others is more a long-term thing and rate of progress, for example whether are systemic issues currently capping our potential.

 

[lucky number 7]

Doesn't change my point in anyway - you don't play a traditional 7, and the reason SOB (and today TOD) is so effective as a 7 is because your front 5 give him a platform to launch off.

Not becaus eIreland play a traditional fetcher as they are alluding to up there ^^^^^

Come off it Sean O'Brien just because he is larger than normal doesn't make him less of a traditional seven. He out 7'nd Richie ****ing McCaw when they met in the Aviva last time and consistently leads turnovers and tackle counts when fit. He's everything a 7 needs to and should be.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Come off it Sean O'Brien just because he is larger than normal doesn't make him less of a traditional seven. He out 7'nd Richie ****ing McCaw when they met in the Aviva last time and consistently leads turnovers and tackle counts when fit. He's everything a 7 needs to and should be.

Ireland have a pack of guys who love to get their hands on the ball and jackle in Healy, O'Connell, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Heaslip, Best, and now Murphy, or so it seems. I would argue it takes a lot of pressure off O'Brien and allows him to play a more general flanker role. After all, tackles and turnovers are hardly the preserve of openside flankers.
If Robshaw had similar players besides him, England would have done much better at the breakdown yesterday and Robshaw would have spearheaded it, just as SOB does for Ireland.

 

[ncurd]

I know what you mean..

The thing is, in my eyes, turning over 23 times, never regaining possession from your kicks, losing 4 of your own lineouts and conceding 13 penalties - is itself playing poorly.
It doesn't matter what crazy skill you've shown elsewhere when you have those stats

What you're saying I believe is that when we had the ball we didn't look that bad?

Actually what I'm saying is we squandered our chances with the ball without backup support as you did but if we hadn't done that we may have won the game. We only lost 3 lineouts apparently and 13 to 8 penalties while not great (I am after all not insane) is not enough of a margin to really loose yourself the game (although it doesn't help).

Another interesting stat is England had a total of two scrums all game....

The diffrence between the two sides yesterday was retaining the ball, England in defense were perfectly fine it was attack and squandering those breaks that really hurt us. Nothing really different to what you said but I think we are too hard on England when they loose sometimes.

 

[valley commando]

Biggar is okay, but seeing as Gatland preferred Farrell to him for the Lions, and Ford has now usurped Farrell, I doubt Biggar will be going on the next Lions tour.

If you think Biggar won't go then Ford certainly won't he is on par with Priestland ie not good enough, I had my head in my hands when Priestland came on in Paris, luckily he didn't get enough game time to screw things up
The best 10 in England is Cipriani however he is treated like James Hook by Wales, both players have been wasted by their international coaches.
Also like to add that in their own way both Gats and Lancs do themselves no favours with their make a decision and stick with it regardless attitude; eg Gats not picking form players who don't necessarily fit Warren ball, such as Hook over the last few years and currently Tipuric and Scott Williams. Lancs with his not not picking French based players, Armitage easily the best English no 8. There was a rumour recently that he may end up in the France World cup squad as he is qualified on residency now.

 

[Feicarsinn]

My head hurts. We're excellent at making teams look terrible.

Schmidt is Belichick, Sexton is Brady, everyone else does their job. All hail the Ireland Patriots.

 

[goodNumber10]

Come off it Sean O'Brien just because he is larger than normal doesn't make him less of a traditional seven.

you're right, his size doesn't make him less of a traditional 7.

the fact he doesn't play like one does

He out 7'nd Richie ****ing McCaw when they met in the Aviva last time and consistently leads turnovers and tackle counts when fit. He's everything a 7 needs to and should be.

None of which makes him a traditional 7.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually what I'm saying is we squandered our chances with the ball without backup support as you did but if we hadn't done that we may have won the game. We only lost 3 lineouts apparently and 13 to 8 penalties while not great (I am after all not insane) is not enough of a margin to really loose yourself the game (although it doesn't help).

Another interesting stat is England had a total of two scrums all game....

The diffrence between the two sides yesterday was retaining the ball, England in defense were perfectly fine it was attack and squandering those breaks that really hurt us. Nothing really different to what you said but I think we are too hard on England when they loose sometimes.

It's the manner of the loss that is so frustrating.

I don't mind losing if we play well, take it to the wire and then get pipped.

But from the first kick off i turned to my mate and said we've lost this.

- - - Updated - - -

There was a rumour recently that he may end up in the France World cup squad as he is qualified on residency now.

oh, god.

Not this again.

*weeps*

 

[ncurd]

If you think Biggar won't go then Ford certainly won't he is on par with Priestland ie not good enough, I had my head in my hands when Priestland came on in Paris, luckily he didn't get enough game time to screw things up
The best 10 in England is Cipriani however he is treated like James Hook by Wales, both players have been wasted by their international coaches.
Also like to add that in their own way both Gats and Lancs do themselves no favours with their make a decision and stick with it regardless attitude; eg Gats not picking form players who don't necessarily fit Warren ball, such as Hook over the last few years and currently Tipuric and Scott Williams. Lancs with his not not picking French based players, Armitage easily the best English no 8. There was a rumour recently that he may end up in the France World cup squad as he is qualified on residency now.

Armitage plays 7...

Cips has been overlooked for so long because to be quite frank he wasn't up to it for many years after he broke his ankle and has only just really started to play himself back into contention. He up until recently was more like Henson than Hook.

Cips and Ford are probably about equal currently, difference between the two is Ford still has potential to be an even better players whereas Cips has probably reached his.....reality however is if he hadn't retired last season Wilkinson is still probably the best English fly-half out there....maybe still the world (just watch the European Cup final last year).

---Updated---

Apparently I'm wrong about Armitage....

 

[goodNumber10]

reality however is if he hadn't retired last season Wilkinson is still probably the best English fly-half out there....maybe still the world (just watch the European Cup final last year).

oooooooooooooh! Don't agree with that at all!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The diffrence between the two sides yesterday was retaining the ball, England in defense were perfectly fine it was attack and squandering those breaks that really hurt us. Nothing really different to what you said but I think we are too hard on England when they loose sometimes.

Yes, but if you unpack the issue of ball retention there are quite a few related issues there to do with breakdown, decision making, tactics & kicking which are system ones.
I do see where you're coming from. Why was nobody anywhere near Vunipola when he made that break? Clearly not on the same page.

Re Ireland - I'm not sure what to think - my gut feeling is that better teams should be able to put them away simply by taking chances, but the evidence is that this simply hasn't happened, and New Zealand are now the only top team Ireland haven't beaten.
I still think Ireland will come up short against highly skillfull teams...even if the only remaining such team is New Zealand! In other words, Ireland will need to find that extra gear with ball in hand.