[2015 Six Nations] Ireland vs England (Round 3)

[TommiG88]

This should be a good watch, maybe not exciting but intense.
Ireland will be under the microscope against the big English pack.
How far have they come, will they be brittle under pressure. Can they score tries against the big teams and keep their lead effectively.
Joe Schmidt under the spotlight
His players under the blow torch.
Recent results would say that Ireland ae more than capable but here we are 6-7 months out from the RWC, lets see what is on display, game on, a Must watch.

Is that Eddie butlers pre match script?

 

[goodNumber10]

Is that Eddie butlers pre match script?

Hahah! I was just thinking the exact same thing.... Coupled with desaturated footage from the pitch side camera's and press clippings....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Set to this:

 

[goodNumber10]

with the crowd noise bursting through everynow and then when something "exciting" is shown.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I see an enormous amount of **** posts festering in this thread.
Typical 6N bandwagon troglodytes out for their few weeks basking in the glory of the 6N


Ireland will either physically dismantle England
Or Ireland will concede trys early and not have the firepower to pull back.

It's up to Ireland essentially. England as nice as they appear to be playing aren't going to win unless they come out all guns blazing and get some early scores then merely keep the scoreboard ticking.

But I can see England come undone when put up against our defense. Either that or I eat my words and we are blitzed by a genuinely potent attacking force.

Please tell me this is another one of those posts that lure us English fans into getting angry so the whole world can laugh at us for who we really are? Because if not this is arrogance and irony of the highest order.

On a serious note you say Ireland might concede tries early and not be able to fight back. Have you seen England lately? For us to make a flying start you would have to do something horribly wrong. Its the other way round really, if we concede early tries we may not be able to get ourselves back in it, we'll probably give it a good go but it will be near impossible, a strong start (as in not conceding a try immediately) is what we'll be looking for.

And to suggest Ireland could physically dismantle England? Hahahahahaha

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I see an enormous amount of **** posts festering in this thread.
Typical 6N bandwagon troglodytes out for their few weeks basking in the glory of the 6N

The irony of this being your first post in ages is not lost on me, manlet.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ireland really should physically dominate England, there's little in it in the forwards but when you look at our backs, all of whom are over 6" and all but Henshaw being bigger than their opposite number. Addded to the fact that two of the three best ball carrying forwards, Healy, SOB and Vunipola, Ireland really should have an upper hand in the contact zone. France showed that to score against Ireland you have to batter them to exhaustion when they'll begin to make make mistakes and I don't think England have the front row, wings or centres to do that. For England to win this one, Ford will have to rule the game, keep Ireland pinned back and hope the back three are on point. The only way I see England scoring tries is through a maul or getting the upper hand in an attacking scrum.
Im going to be bold, and arrogant, and predict a 1 try game with Ireland winning by 5+. Obviously none of you English will agree but that's the beauty of an a Ireland v England thread!

 

[goodNumber10]

Addded to the fact that two of the three best ball carrying forwards, Healy, SOB and Vunipola, Ireland really should have an upper hand in the contact zone.

Healy? You're hedging your bets on a man coming back form injury being one of the best ball carriers on the pitch?

France showed that to score against Ireland you have to batter them to exhaustion when they'll begin to make make mistakes and I don't think England have the front row, wings or centres to do that. For England to win this one, Ford will have to rule the game, keep Ireland pinned back and hope the back three are on point. The only way I see England scoring tries is through a maul or getting the upper hand in an attacking scrum.
Im going to be bold, and arrogant, and predict a 1 try game with Ireland winning by 5+. Obviously none of you English will agree but that's the beauty of an a Ireland v England thread!

yeah agree with all of that except the scoring through the maul, i can see it being a couple of points swing to Ireland - at home, haven't won for two years. they'll be looking to bring the pain.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Ireland really should physically dominate England, there's little in it in the forwards but when you look at our backs, all of whom are over 6" and all but Henshaw being bigger than their opposite number. Addded to the fact that two of the three best ball carrying forwards, Healy, SOB and Vunipola, Ireland really should have an upper hand in the contact zone. France showed that to score against Ireland you have to batter them to exhaustion when they'll begin to make make mistakes and I don't think England have the front row, wings or centres to do that. For England to win this one, Ford will have to rule the game, keep Ireland pinned back and hope the back three are on point. The only way I see England scoring tries is through a maul or getting the upper hand in an attacking scrum.
Im going to be bold, and arrogant, and predict a 1 try game with Ireland winning by 5+. Obviously none of you English will agree but that's the beauty of an a Ireland v England thread!

English Fan in Peace....

I find this suggestion that Ireland should physically dominate England completely bizzare, especially based on what we've seen in the tourny so far. It goes without saying that I'm not offended by your opinion I just find it highly strange, especially with reference to the backs, where, a Welsh backline twice the size of Irelands was recently made to look normal-sized by a mixture of physicality and excellent linespeed in defence.

In Haskell England have the form blindside who's recent carrying has been something to behold and is, as you'll know, very good in the contact area. Robshaw is a very physical player at 7 as well. In fact, It's a pretty monstruous back-row all told, more so in the carrying department than the irish one, at least I would argue, with O'Brien likely not fully fit yet and Heaslip out of the equation.
Added to that Attwood is one the most physical locks in the current game. Kruis is more the athletic type lock, but then so is Paul O'Connell.
The front row is perhaps where we give it away a bit - but actually when you look at it, Marler and Hartley have been completely crucial, with their defense-leading linespeed, in helping us well in the contact zone for example against Wales.

Off the bench, England have two monstrous carriers in Mako Vunipola and Kieran Brookes..

I also find it strange that you're basing what is possible / how to beat Ireland on the example of two very limited sides you have recently played, neither of whom currently have the attacking game to do a great deal.

On the other hand, I largely agree that to win Ford will have to rule the game..

 

[goodNumber10]

English Fan in Peace....

I find this suggestion that Ireland should physically dominate England completely bizzare, especially based on what we've seen in the tourny so far. It goes without saying that I'm not offended by your opinion I just find it highly strange, especially with reference to the backs, where, a Welsh backline twice the size of Irelands was recently made to look normal-sized by a mixture of physicality and excellent linespeed in defence.

In Haskell England have the form blindside who's recent carrying has been something to behold and is, as you'll know, very good in the contact area. Robshaw is a very physical player at 7 as well. In fact, It's a pretty monstruous back-row all told, more so in the carrying department than the irish one, at least I would argue, with O'Brien likely not fully fit yet and Heaslip out of the equation.
Added to that Attwood is one the most physical locks in the current game. Kruis is more the athletic type lock, but then so is Paul O'Connell.
The front row is perhaps where we give it away a bit - but actually when you look at it, Marler and Hartley have been completely crucial, with their defense-leading linespeed, in helping us well in the contact zone for example against Wales.

Off the bench, England have two monstrous carriers in Mako Vunipola and Kieran Brookes..

I also find it strange that you're basing what is possible / how to beat Ireland on the example of two very limited sides you have recently played, neither of whom currently have the attacking game to do a great deal.

On the other hand, I largely agree that to win Ford will have to rule the game..

Also France scored in 6 phases, by offloading out of the contact and spinning it wide to Huget and Fofana - i guess you could argue that they'd battere dthem all game but the possesions stats don't really back that up - it was pretty even.

 

[bw245]

I see an enormous amount of **** posts festering in this thread.
Typical 6N bandwagon troglodytes out for their few weeks basking in the glory of the 6N


Ireland will either physically dismantle England
Or Ireland will concede trys early and not have the firepower to pull back.

It's up to Ireland essentially. England as nice as they appear to be playing aren't going to win unless they come out all guns blazing and get some early scores then merely keep the scoreboard ticking.

But I can see England come undone when put up against our defense. Either that or I eat my words and we are blitzed by a genuinely potent attacking force.

I cannot see ireland conceding many tries. Then again, I can't see them scoring them either.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Also France scored in 6 phases, by offloading out of the contact and spinning it wide to Huget and Fofana - i guess you could argue that they'd battere dthem all game but the possesions stats don't really back that up - it was pretty even.

A good point - Something changed for France in that last 20 and I suspect it had something to do with Morgan Parra, and as you say the ball was flung around a bit more.. If they had kept playing the way they had for the first 60, I don't think any amount of battering would have unlocked the Irish defence.

 

[bw245]

Mike Brown seems to have taken a set back. He's doubtful for the weekend.
Ireland have been quiet with their mauls in recent games. Especially line out mauls. I'm wondering if this is something they'll go back to, as england will find it hard to defend it.
Line out mauls or cross field kicks are the only way I see Ireland scoring tries.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

English Fan in Peace....

I find this suggestion that Ireland should physically dominate England completely bizzare, especially based on what we've seen in the tourny so far. It goes without saying that I'm not offended by your opinion I just find it highly strange, especially with reference to the backs, where, a Welsh backline twice the size of Irelands was recently made to look normal-sized by a mixture of physicality and excellent linespeed in defence.

Great, I realise that this could be seen as outlandish but based on this tournament and the EOYT it's, rightly or wrongly, the opinion I've formed. Ireland's backline vs Wales' isn't really a comparison, Wales' is bigger but also a lot dumber. Conor Murray plays a huge role in this, in him Ireland have a 9 who gives them dominance at the fringes over any other side in the world and his kicking game also allows domination in a physical sense considering a lot of the time Ireland let the opposition gather the ball only to knock them back. Another aspect where I see this physical advantage reaping rewards for Ireland is, GN10 will love this, George Ford. Wales got over the advantage line through his channel very effectively but didn't take advantage, if Ireland do this I think they have the ability to do more and I think more expansive rugby than we have seen thus far will follow.

In Haskell England have the form blindside who's recent carrying has been something to behold and is, as you'll know, very good in the contact area. Robshaw is a very physical player at 7 as well. In fact, It's a pretty monstruous back-row all told, more so in the carrying department than the irish one, at least I would argue, with O'Brien likely not fully fit yet and Heaslip out of the equation.
Added to that Attwood is one the most physical locks in the current game. Kruis is more the athletic type lock, but then so is Paul O'Connell.
The front row is perhaps where we give it away a bit - but actually when you look at it, Marler and Hartley have been completely crucial, with their defense-leading linespeed, in helping us well in the contact zone for example against Wales.

Off the bench, England have two monstrous carriers in Mako Vunipola and Kieran Brookes..

I think, in regards to the back row, you might be underestimating Ireland a little bit. O'Brien is the obvious threat but in O'Mahoney and Murphy they have two very good carriers, O'Mahoney being effective in slightly wider channels with Murphy, my motm in round 1, having a great ability to get over the gain line in the tight. The three players are also very effective breakdown operators and what they lose to the a English in ball carrying they most certainly make up for here.

The second rows are completely different, as you say Kruis and O'Connell are the more athletic breed and I'd add that O'Connell is definitely the better of the two. And then you have the workhorses, the brute force of Attwood vs the intelligence of Toner, in terms of ball carrying I'd again say that the advantage is England's but Ireland have the upper hand in defence and a slight one at the breakdown.

Front rows are hard to compare, Healy is a bullish carrier and looked fit against Zebre (I know) on Friday, he also adds presence to the breakdown along with Best. Best and Ross also get through a lot of unseen work in defence. Overall, I think that Irekand bring a bit more when it comes to ball carrying here, with the English having the upper hand in defence. They're pretty even at the breakdown.

Both th sides have strong ball carriers on the bench. Henderson, O'Donnell and Cronin all can, and have, wreaked havoc against tired sides much like their English counterparts. The benches are actually shockingly similar! Both sets of forwards are there largely for impact, the 10's if a loose game is wanted and the 9's and outside backs for a more controlled, calmer game.

I also find it strange that you're basing what is possible / how to beat Ireland on the example of two very limited sides you have recently played, neither of whom currently have the attacking game to do a great deal.

On the other hand, I largely agree that to win Ford will have to rule the game..

Well it was those and the EOYT, I used France as an example because it was fresher in memory but South Africa got their tries through the same method. Australia went around Ireland with ridiculous ball handling and skill levels but I think they're one of two sides in the world with the ability to do this, the other wears black!

I think a few small advantages across the pitch for Ireland along with a bigger advantage in the half backs will see Ireland through and, not dominate, but having the upper hand in contact should play a big role.

 

[bw245]

Great, I realise that this could be seen as outlandish but based on this tournament and the EOYT it's, rightly or wrongly, the opinion I've formed. Ireland's backline vs Wales' isn't really a comparison, Wales' is bigger but also a lot dumber. Conor Murray plays a huge role in this, in him Ireland have a 9 who gives them dominance at the fringes over any other side in the world and his kicking game also allows domination in a physical sense considering a lot of the time Ireland let the opposition gather the ball only to knock them back. Another aspect where I see this physical advantage reaping rewards for Ireland is, GN10 will love this, George Ford. Wales got over the advantage line through his channel very effectively but didn't take advantage, if Ireland do this I think they have the ability to do more and I think more expansive rugby than we have seen thus far will follow.



I think, in regards to the back row, you might be underestimating Ireland a little bit. O'Brien is the obvious threat but in O'Mahoney and Murphy they have two very good carriers, O'Mahoney being effective in slightly wider channels with Murphy, my motm in round 1, having a great ability to get over the gain line in the tight. The three players are also very effective breakdown operators and what they lose to the a English in ball carrying they most certainly make up for here.

The second rows are completely different, as you say Kruis and O'Connell are the more athletic breed and I'd add that O'Connell is definitely the better of the two. And then you have the workhorses, the brute force of Attwood vs the intelligence of Toner, in terms of ball carrying I'd again say that the advantage is England's but Ireland have the upper hand in defence and a slight one at the breakdown.

Front rows are hard to compare, Healy is a bullish carrier and looked fit against Zebre (I know) on Friday, he also adds presence to the breakdown along with Best. Best and Ross also get through a lot of unseen work in defence. Overall, I think that Irekand bring a bit more when it comes to ball carrying here, with the English having the upper hand in defence. They're pretty even at the breakdown.

Both th sides have strong ball carriers on the bench. Henderson, O'Donnell and Cronin all can, and have, wreaked havoc against tired sides much like their English counterparts. The benches are actually shockingly similar! Both sets of forwards are there largely for impact, the 10's if a loose game is wanted and the 9's and outside backs for a more controlled, calmer game.

Well it was those and the EOYT, I used France as an example because it was fresher in memory but South Africa got their tries through the same method. Australia went around Ireland with ridiculous ball handling and skill levels but I think they're one of two sides in the world with the ability to do this, the other wears black!

I think a few small advantages across the pitch for Ireland along with a bigger advantage in the half backs will see Ireland through and, not dominate, but having the upper hand in contact should play a big role.

Great post!

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Great, I realise that this could be seen as outlandish but based on this tournament and the EOYT it's, rightly or wrongly, the opinion I've formed. Ireland's backline vs Wales' isn't really a comparison, Wales' is bigger but also a lot dumber. Conor Murray plays a huge role in this, in him Ireland have a 9 who gives them dominance at the fringes over any other side in the world and his kicking game also allows domination in a physical sense considering a lot of the time Ireland let the opposition gather the ball only to knock them back. Another aspect where I see this physical advantage reaping rewards for Ireland is, GN10 will love this, George Ford. Wales got over the advantage line through his channel very effectively but didn't take advantage, if Ireland do this I think they have the ability to do more and I think more expansive rugby than we have seen thus far will follow.

I think, in regards to the back row, you might be underestimating Ireland a little bit. O'Brien is the obvious threat but in O'Mahoney and Murphy they have two very good carriers, O'Mahoney being effective in slightly wider channels with Murphy, my motm in round 1, having a great ability to get over the gain line in the tight. The three players are also very effective breakdown operators and what they lose to the a English in ball carrying they most certainly make up for here.

The second rows are completely different, as you say Kruis and O'Connell are the more athletic breed and I'd add that O'Connell is definitely the better of the two. And then you have the workhorses, the brute force of Attwood vs the intelligence of Toner, in terms of ball carrying I'd again say that the advantage is England's but Ireland have the upper hand in defence and a slight one at the breakdown.

Front rows are hard to compare, Healy is a bullish carrier and looked fit against Zebre (I know) on Friday, he also adds presence to the breakdown along with Best. Best and Ross also get through a lot of unseen work in defence. Overall, I think that Irekand bring a bit more when it comes to ball carrying here, with the English having the upper hand in defence. They're pretty even at the breakdown.

Both th sides have strong ball carriers on the bench. Henderson, O'Donnell and Cronin all can, and have, wreaked havoc against tired sides much like their English counterparts. The benches are actually shockingly similar! Both sets of forwards are there largely for impact, the 10's if a loose game is wanted and the 9's and outside backs for a more controlled, calmer game.

Well it was those and the EOYT, I used France as an example because it was fresher in memory but South Africa got their tries through the same method. Australia went around Ireland with ridiculous ball handling and skill levels but I think they're one of two sides in the world with the ability to do this, the other wears black!

I think a few small advantages across the pitch for Ireland along with a bigger advantage in the half backs will see Ireland through and, not dominate, but having the upper hand in contact should play a big role.

From the tactical perspective you refer to via the half-backs, I definitely find your argument a lot easier to accept. You're right to say that its not purely about size, and indeed Ireland often overwhelm opposition physical because of the ability of the Half-backs to put kicks on the money and allow the chasing player to smash the opposition.
This is my chief worry to be honest - going back to the defeat in Dublin in 2011 we were smashed partly because, somehow, your forward always had momentum and
Irish Rucking + Momentum into the ruck = Pure devestation.

I definitely know what O'Mahony is capable of, and Henderson is a machine, though I was sort of expecting Jordi Murphy to start instead?

In a nutshell I think physical domination for Ireland will be reliant on the positions the half-backs put you in; if the box kicks are on the money as the usually are, I can't see us finding a way past Alex Goodes incompetence and duck-footedness. If Ben Youngs plays well and alongside Ford the pair manage to put us in good positions, I would back us to do very well in the contact area.
I'm hopeful of advantage at scrum time, which could also be important, and expectant of parity at lineout time.

In short I'd say we have a slight edge at the scrum from Marlers recent showings which should help our-go forward and contact area..
I'd say Ireland have a moderately large edge by the accuracy of the tactical kicking and the pressure this will put us under.

 

[bw245]

This day 8 years ago we welcomed England to Croke Park. Big John Hayes sobbed like a baby and we won 43-13. Great memories.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You're putting a lot of faith in O'Brien carrying anywhere near as well as he did before his injury.
vs France he had 6 carries for 3 metres and looked well off the pace (or at least compared to his usual standards). This is to be expected after such a long lay off, but I doubt an extra week of conditioning is going to improve this drastically, especially as there was no game time during it.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well it was those and the EOYT, I used France as an example because it was fresher in memory but South Africa got their tries through the same method. Australia went around Ireland with ridiculous ball handling and skill levels but I think they're one of two sides in the world with the ability to do this, the other wears black!

but that's not how France scored their try, it was counter attack and intense pace in the wide channels - they literally ran backwards to avoid contact at times and keep the ball alive.

They didn't batter ireland until they ran out of defenders (which is how i read what you're saying)

 

[munstermuffin]

Billy Holland is in squad ha ha now I don't know what to say like I'm lost ha ha.

On serious note I'm hearing it's very dodgy Henderson will be fit and Olyy I agree with your comment regards SOB's carrying and what it's like now compared to before injuries. Nobody can say either way as he hasn't shown if he can or not yet but equally he hasn't had much opportunity yet