[2015 Six Nations] England

[gaston le gaff]

Probably because it is...

now where have i heard that before talk about broken records!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Maverick1987]

Unless Lobbe, Gorgodze or Armitage are suddenly allowed to be in the Englabd squad for the 6N the last few posts are probably in the wrong thread ......

 

[welshglory]

Toulon use Armitage at 8 for his pace and some variation, he's not an international 8. To be fair he is probably 2nd choice there for them, behind Masoe. Lobbe and Gorgodze are more flankers.

Manoa is probably being brought into replace Masoe. Armitage will still be back up 8.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Watching the Sale/Saints game - I know he's only got a couple of part time locks behind him, but Corbs was absolutely taken apart by Cobilas

 

[TheSaffycen]

Could we not have Ewers, Robshaw and Kvesic ?
Why not have Ewers doing his thing at 6 hitting rucks making tight carries. Kvesic is the fetcher/tackling beast. Robshaw at 8 can be the link man, his handling is brilliant and his passing is top notch. His carrying can be made up for by Ewers and you could have a Corbs or Burgess ?

My pack would be 1.Corbs 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Lawes 6.Ewers 7.Kvesic 8.Robshaw
In the half backs I would have 9.Care 10.Ford It's pretty straight forwards and they can combine pace and real attacking threat.

At centres I would go for Burrell and Joseph, powerful and fast. The ball should get to the wings as well.

On the wings May and Nowell are the perfect Lancaster wingers, though I have to say (God help me) Banahan has looked good for Bath. He could be a real threat in the air and his finishing has improved it seems. Fullback I guess is Brown or Watson/Nowell.

 

[yaboyjj]

Could we not have Ewers, Robshaw and Kvesic ?
Why not have Ewers doing his thing at 6 hitting rucks making tight carries. Kvesic is the fetcher/tackling beast. Robshaw at 8 can be the link man, his handling is brilliant and his passing is top notch. His carrying can be made up for by Ewers and you could have a Corbs or Burgess ?

My pack would be 1.Corbs 2.Hartley 3.Wilson 4.Attwood 5.Lawes 6.Ewers 7.Kvesic 8.Robshaw
In the half backs I would have 9.Care 10.Ford It's pretty straight forwards and they can combine pace and real attacking threat.

At centres I would go for Burrell and Joseph, powerful and fast. The ball should get to the wings as well.

On the wings May and Nowell are the perfect Lancaster wingers, though I have to say (God help me) Banahan has looked good for Bath. He could be a real threat in the air and his finishing has improved it seems. Fullback I guess is Brown or Watson/Nowell.

I would love to see that combo in the back row, Robshaw is looking class every time he takes to the pitch- so is Kvesic for that matter.
Still not convinced by Burrell- he seems to be blowing hot and cold at the moment (looked like twelvetrees mkII today with all the unforced errors), I think that the Burrell/Joseph centre combo sounds good on paper, but I get the feeling they would go missing when the going gets tough.
I think problem positions for England atm are 9, 12, 13.
At 9 imo Simpson has just as good a running game as Care/Youngs, but it looks as if he can actually pass the ball too! as for kicking game/game management (accusation that is mostly used to discount his credentials as an international), the competition hardly cover themselves in glory in this respect.

Right now we have at 12: Eastmond, Barritt, 36, (Devoto, Hill, Lowe)* and at 13: Slade, Joseph, Burrell
* these three I expect would do at least a good a job as the two before them taking all things into account
Pic'n mix really, Lanky obviously wants some sort of boshy option along side a distributor/footballer, but it's still an open house realy without Tuilagi.

On another note I'm watching Northampton getting monstered by the sale pack at the breakdown and set piece, Saints look very under powered without Lawes/Manoa and Wood is looking like a beanpole at the moment. Interested to know if this is a conscious decision to lose weight/up fitness levels at the request of the England management? (could say the same for Lawes too), because its the last thing he needs- neither him nor Clarke should be anywhere near the England team, one for being a penalty magnet (which didn't imporve today in the slightest) and the other for his horrific past reputation.
Corbs getting a bit of a going over in he scrums which is a bit worrying- not sure how much to read into it though given hes just back from injury and had a makeshift second row behind him.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Last time we stuck a flanker at 8 it went very badly (30-3). I'm in no hurry to put Robshaw out of position ahead of other 8's.

I think May is our best attacking option at 11 if used properly but Banahan has been doing so much right at the moment it is hard to ignore him. He's been incredible under the high ball, which would work with the England game plan which tends to result in kicking a lot. He is solid in defence and makes some huge hits. He doesn't have the pace or agility of May but he's a pretty solid all-rounder who can play off his wing quite well and get involved in the more physical aspects of the game if needs be. I've always been worried about England's weakness to kicks behind the defence and Banahan would do a lot to make me feel more comfortable about that.

I think Eastmond would be our best chance at 12 when on form Tuilagi outside. Joseph is a better runner I feel but England really lack carriers and Tuilagi gives another strong carrying option outside the pack, which makes up for the lack of them in the pack.

I think the biggest problem England have is poor breakdown work. We rarely get turnovers or slow the ball down and are poor at securing our own ball. We NEED someone who can do this and Robshaw and Wood just aren't good enough. They are too alike with Robshaw being better in every area. Dan Cole actually used to do this stuff well for England, a bit suprising for a Prop.

 

[Crapspray]

Interested to know if this is a conscious decision to lose weight/up fitness levels at the request of the England management? (could say the same for Lawes too), because its the last thing he needs

I think it is. Both he and Robshaw have lost half a stone (Robshaw did it in the summer of 2013 instead of going to Argentina), with Robshaw saying he did it in agreement with the England management in order to be quicker round the park. Dave Attwood said something similar in an interview about his weight loss this pre-season - by the RFU website he nows weight the same as Launchbury.

I'm guessing Rowntree wants a pack that is technically good enough to not rely on sheer power in the set-piece, so they can increase work-rate in loose play. Basically New Zealand-lite, but with worse handling and breakdown skills.

I think the biggest problem England have is poor breakdown work. We rarely get turnovers or slow the ball down and are poor at securing our own ball. We NEED someone who can do this and Robshaw and Wood just aren't good enough. They are too alike with Robshaw being better in every area.

I agree. Though I think the biggest loss is Launchbury, who hits 20-30 rucks a game without fail. Attwood, for all his other strengths, doesn't and Lawes never has. Launchbury's absence was probably why Wood and Robshaw looked that bit worse this autumn: they were missing the third blindside. I'd love to see Attwood and Launchbury played together at least once this year.

I think Eastmond would be our best chance at 12 when on form Tuilagi outside. Joseph is a better runner I feel but England really lack carriers and Tuilagi gives another strong carrying option outside the pack, which makes up for the lack of them in the pack.

I can't help but feel Tuilagi should just move in one. Put someone like Slade/Joseph/Daly at 13. Bosh is there, Tuilagi leads defence, wingers have a fast outside centre who passes, and the 13 can be the second receiver if needs be. If Tuilagi has to be there, play him where we can't find anyone. Then try out all the players who've been waiting three years (Slade excluded).

My money's on Barritt-Burrell though. I just pray Ford keeps the 10 shirt, otherwise the wingers will be doing nothing all tournament.

 

[yaboyjj]

I think it is. Both he and Robshaw have lost half a stone (Robshaw did it in the summer of 2013 instead of going to Argentina), with Robshaw saying he did it in agreement with the England management in order to be quicker round the park. Dave Attwood said something similar in an interview about his weight loss this pre-season - by the RFU website he nows weight the same as Launchbury.

I'm guessing Rowntree wants a pack that is technically good enough to not rely on sheer power in the set-piece, so they can increase work-rate in loose play. Basically New Zealand-lite, but with worse handling and breakdown skills.



I agree. Though I think the biggest loss is Launchbury, who hits 20-30 rucks a game without fail. Attwood, for all his other strengths, doesn't and Lawes never has. Launchbury's absence was probably why Wood and Robshaw looked that bit worse this autumn: they were missing the third blindside. I'd love to see Attwood and Launchbury played together at least once this year.



I can't help but feel Tuilagi should just move in one. Put someone like Slade/Joseph/Daly at 13. Bosh is there, Tuilagi leads defence, wingers have a fast outside centre who passes, and the 13 can be the second receiver if needs be. If Tuilagi has to be there, play him where we can't find anyone. Then try out all the players who've been waiting three years (Slade excluded).

My money's on Barritt-Burrell though. I just pray Ford keeps the 10 shirt, otherwise the wingers will be doing nothing all tournament.

I believe Tuilagi played at 12 for the Lions and on the tour to SA, it conforms to how most other international teams line up with a bosher inside, with a flier outside (Slade/Joseph) just not sure they would ever get the ball except for the decoy/miss pass from 10..
Steve James proposed this as the Saxons team to play Ireland 'A' later this month:
Foden; Rokoduguni, Burgess, Slade, Wade; Myler, Simpson; Mullan, Webber, Thomas, Kruis, Kitchener, Clark, Ewers, Kvesic

Swap in Cips for Myler and take Burgess out, and I think we are realisticaly approaching a stage where the A team is better than the first XV.

My team for Cardiff: Cole, Youngs, Marler, Atwood, Lawes, Kvesic, Robshaw, Ewers, Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Slade, Wade, Watson

It may seem risky with such a small inexperienced back-line, but right now imo we have nothing to lose (well not in the bigger picture of the world cup) and everything to gain. You might worry that the welsh back-line will have a field day here (although I reckon Eastmond makes less defensive errors/missed tackles than Burrell would), but if (big if) the pack can provide some decent front foot ball and deprive the welsh of possesion, then this quick agile scrum half/fly half/centre/wing combo would run riot against the oil tankers that are Roberts/North/Cuthbert and co.
Realistically what are we going to find out by playing Barritt/Burrell in the centres or Wood/Vunipola in the back row?, we know exactly what they give (and it doesn't exactly fill me with much confidence).

 

[goodNumber10]

I believe Tuilagi played at 12 for the Lions and on the tour to SA, it conforms to how most other international teams line up with a bosher inside, with a flier outside (Slade/Joseph) just not sure they would ever get the ball except for the decoy/miss pass from 10..

He also played at 12 for England against South Africa in 2011.

Steve James proposed this as the Saxons team to play Ireland 'A' later this month:
Foden; Rokoduguni, Burgess, Slade, Wade; Myler, Simpson; Mullan, Webber, Thomas, Kruis, Kitchener, Clark, Ewers, Kvesic

HYe's got Slade and Burgess the wrong way around, Burgess is playign 12, and Slade 13 - which makes more sense.

Swap in Cips for Myler and take Burgess out, and I think we are realisticaly approaching a stage where the A team is better than the first XV.

not even remotely close.

My team for Cardiff: Cole, Youngs, Marler, Atwood, Lawes, Kvesic, Robshaw, Ewers, Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Slade, Wade, Watson

That back line would be decimated by the big welsh backs.

 

[Crapspray]

I believe Tuilagi played at 12 for the Lions and on the tour to SA… not sure they would ever get the ball except for the decoy/miss pass from 10.

Which is pretty much the case now. Only now it gets to 13 and usually crashes; or the 12 has to make a long pass to the winger.

Steve James proposed this as the Saxons team to play Ireland 'A' later this month… I think we are realisticaly approaching a stage where the A team is better than the first XV.

That's nearly always the case. The risky, adventurous young players are always picked for 'A' games, but coaches bottle it for full internationals. For example, against the BaaBaas England played (subs):

9. Simpson (Robson)
10. Slade
11. Sharples (Miller)
12. Hill (Devoto)
13. Joseph
14. Rockoduguni
15. Daly

Which is a damn sight more exciting that what played against Australia. Probably fall to bits in the Millenium Stadium though.

… but right now imo we have nothing to lose (well not in the bigger picture of the world cup) and everything to gain.

I think England should win at all costs in Cardiff. To go into the World Cup having beaten both Wales and Australia twice in a row would be a very nice edge. And if England are to have a hope in hell, they need to beat both and avoid NZ/SA until the final.

 

[yaboyjj]

He also played at 12 for England against South Africa in 2011.

Yeah I said that


HYe's got Slade and Burgess the wrong way around, Burgess is playign 12, and Slade 13 - which makes more sense.



not even remotely close.

It would be interesting to see a probables v possibles match none the less

That back line would be decimated by the big welsh backs.

I think the size issue is way overplayed tbh, case in point, Wales went to Dublin last six nations and got completely taken apart, but if we look at the Irish backs that played that day: 15-Rob Kearney, 14-Andrew Trimble, 13-Brian O'Driscoll, 12-Gordon D'Arcy, 11-Dave Kearney, 10-Jonathan Sexton
they must have been giving up at least a stone each to the 'big welsh backs' that day. And yet it counted for nothing since they were outmuscled up front, and Ireland had a good 9/10 axis that was adept at tactical kicking out of hand. Running round the opposition is just as effective as running through them and tackling technique > size, (both Manu and Burrell are very average in defense, one shoots out of the line and the other far too often misses tackles or gets done on the outside hence both needing a babysitter inside them).
^ I understand that putting them in the deep end all at once in Cardiff may not be clever, but never have I seen such an emphasis on defense from any other International team... frankly we were very lucky to beat Aus in the Autumn (be worried if they sort out their front 5). I expect the NZ line will be Cruden, SBW, Fekitao after the world cup (none exactly renowned for defensive ability), why try to second guess or nulify the opposition with mediocre lumps of meat a la Burrell/Barrett when you can meet fire with fire and try to outscore your oppo with Eastmond/Slade/Joseph/Tuilagi etc.

kinda gone off point and some of this may be over the top, but this negative attitude really frustrates me.

 

[Peat]

I very much doubt Tuilagi can lead a defence - his positioning is frequently all over the shop. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in further trials of him at 12 mind.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think the size issue is way overplayed tbh, case in point, Wales went to Dublin last six nations and got completely taken apart, but if we look at the Irish backs that played that day: 15-Rob Kearney, 14-Andrew Trimble, 13-Brian O'Driscoll, 12-Gordon D'Arcy, 11-Dave Kearney, 10-Jonathan Sexton
they must have been giving up at least a stone each to the 'big welsh backs' that day. And yet it counted for nothing since they were outmuscled up front, and Ireland had a good 9/10 axis that was adept at tactical kicking out of hand. Running round the opposition is just as effective as running through them and tackling technique > size, (both Manu and Burrell are very average in defense, one shoots out of the line and the other far too often misses tackles or gets done on the outside hence both needing a babysitter inside them)

Well as you say their pack was completely out muscled and their halfbacks bossed it, so comparing the backs performance is a bit pointless.

But if you think Wales wouldn't be sending a lot of traffic down Ford, Eastmond and Slades channels.......

I very much doubt Tuilagi can lead a defence - his positioning is frequently all over the shop. Doesn't mean I'm not interested in further trials of him at 12 mind.

the only place Tuilagi can lead a defence is to the showers....

 

[yaboyjj]

Well as you say their pack was completely out muscled and their halfbacks bossed it, so comparing the backs performance is a bit pointless.

But if you think Wales wouldn't be sending a lot of traffic down Eastmond and Slades channel.......




the only place Tuilagi can lead a defence is to the showers....

I think Slade would more than cope actually and Eastmond was dealt with very unfairly in the Summer as none of Tuilagi/Ashton/Burns exactly covered themselves in glory while he's progressed from that since (very rarely get run over either). If you want more muscle add in Devoto/Hill/Lowe at 12 who can all tackle (make less mistakes than 36/Burrell), but also have some good skills in offense (over Barritt).

 

[goodNumber10]

I think Slade would more than cope actually and Eastmond was dealt with very unfairly in the Summer as none of Tuilagi/Ashton/Burns exactly covered themselves in glory while he's progressed from that since (very rarely get run over either).

Well Ashton and burns were dropped from the Sqaud and rightly so, though Eastmond didn't help anyone ni the Summer - and Burrell made a big difference in the second half.

Eastmond was given a second bite of the cherry and frankly wasn't that great in defence.

Slades a good tackler though and would be fine at 13 I think, but with Eastmond and Ford inside he'll be going backwards a lot.

If you want more muscle add in Devoto/Hill/Lowe at 12 who can all tackle, but also have some good skills in offense

Well it's not my back line we're looking at, but i dno't think any fo them are international class yet. Personally i'd pick: Ford, Roko, Burrell, Tuilagi, May, Nowell - as i've said here: http://www.thedeadballarea.com/england-2014-englands-ball-carriers/

 

[yaboyjj]

Well Ashton and burns were dropped from the Sqaud and rightly so, though Eastmond didn't help anyone ni the Summer - and Burrell made a big difference in the second half.

Eastmond was given a second bite of the cherry and frankly wasn't that great in defence.

Slades a good tackler though and would be fine at 13 I think, but with Eastmond and Ford inside he'll be going backwards a lot.



Well it's not my back line we're looking at, but i dno't think any fo them are international class yet. Personally i'd pick: Ford, Roko, Burrell, Tuilagi, May, Nowell - as i've said here: http://www.thedeadballarea.com/england-2014-englands-ball-carriers/

I like the idea of Nowell at full back- does he have a good kicking game?

 

[TommiG88]

I believe Tuilagi played at 12 for the Lions and on the tour to SA, it conforms to how most other international teams line up with a bosher inside, with a flier outside (Slade/Joseph) just not sure they would ever get the ball except for the decoy/miss pass from 10..
Steve James proposed this as the Saxons team to play Ireland 'A' later this month:
Foden; Rokoduguni, Burgess, Slade, Wade; Myler, Simpson; Mullan, Webber, Thomas, Kruis, Kitchener, Clark, Ewers, Kvesic

Swap in Cips for Myler and take Burgess out, and I think we are realisticaly approaching a stage where the A team is better than the first XV.

My team for Cardiff: Cole, Youngs, Marler, Atwood, Lawes, Kvesic, Robshaw, Ewers, Simpson, Ford, May, Eastmond, Slade, Wade, Watson

It may seem risky with such a small inexperienced back-line, but right now imo we have nothing to lose (well not in the bigger picture of the world cup) and everything to gain. You might worry that the welsh back-line will have a field day here (although I reckon Eastmond makes less defensive errors/missed tackles than Burrell would), but if (big if) the pack can provide some decent front foot ball and deprive the welsh of possesion, then this quick agile scrum half/fly half/centre/wing combo would run riot against the oil tankers that are Roberts/North/Cuthbert and co.
Realistically what are we going to find out by playing Barritt/Burrell in the centres or Wood/Vunipola in the back row?, we know exactly what they give (and it doesn't exactly fill me with much confidence).

I agree with most of that. For all of Burrells positives in attack, he falls off far too many tackles for my liking.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Looking at the backlines we could possibly play-
Creative, 9 Care 10 Ford/Cipriani 11 May 12 Eastmond 13 Joseph 14 Rokoduguni 15 Daly
Big, 9 Wigglesworth 10 Farrell 11 Banahan 12 Burrell 13 Tuilagi 14 Rokoduguni 15 Brown
Quick, 9 Simpson 10 Cipriani 11 May 12 Eastmond 13 Joseph 14 Wade 15 Sharples

But it doesn't really matter what backline you put together with us playing like we have at ruck time. Warburton will have a field day if Wood and co don't stand up and have a go. To me Kvesic is needed more and more, put him next to Robshaw (who can easily be a world class 6) have Vunipola or Ewers there.

 

[Josht36]

Looking at the backlines we could possibly play-
Creative, 9 Care 10 Ford/Cipriani 11 May 12 Eastmond 13 Joseph 14 Rokoduguni 15 Daly
Big, 9 Wigglesworth 10 Farrell 11 Banahan 12 Burrell 13 Tuilagi 14 Rokoduguni 15 Brown
Quick, 9 Simpson 10 Cipriani 11 May 12 Eastmond 13 Joseph 14 Wade 15 Sharples

But it doesn't really matter what backline you put together with us playing like we have at ruck time. Warburton will have a field day if Wood and co don't stand up and have a go. To me Kvesic is needed more and more, put him next to Robshaw (who can easily be a world class 6) have Vunipola or Ewers there.

Chris Cook has to be in with a shout if you want a big 9! I would go for a mix of your big and creative teams. Watson would feel hard done by as well.