[2015 Six Nations] England vs France (Round 5)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

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Aye but would of France been anywhere close in that game if not for those bounces and therefore scored that try? I doubt it. Lost the game in the opening 20minuites....wait I'm seeing a theme....

Well... I see what you're saying but we were winning with a few minutes to go, so we can't have lost it in the first 20 . Obviously that made it harder for us but fact is we came back into it incredibly well and should have won. That we didn't is due to a mixture of individual Brilliance (Fickou was it?) and managerial incompetence causing Burrell to be defending out of position - and he made the critical error allowing the try.

 

[msf]

How about playing Cipriani in the centre against Bastareud, so that then when he gets run over then Lancaster has an excuse not to pick him?

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would probably start Lawes,Parling and Wood to help with Tom Youngs throwing. But then Haskell shouldn't be in the 20 shirt as he isn't a great impact sub IMO. I always thought he use to be quite quick but he seems to have put on more muscle but not enough to make him a Fearns/Ewers enforcer, should lose a little and he can be better over the ball.

 

[ncurd]

How about playing Cipriani in the centre against Bastareud, so that then when he gets run over then Lancaster has an excuse not to pick him?

He needs an excuse? I though he was only in the squad so Lancaster can troll him during the week.

I can imagine the gameplan talk

"The scheduled changes we are going to make at 50minuites are Cccccccole for Brookes, Ccccccorbisero for Marler, Ccccccccourtney Lawes for Attwood and Dddddddyland Hartley for Youngs"

"At 79 minutes and 59 seconds we'll bring George off for a celebratory pat on the back and laugh at sheer insanity of letting Danny play for a second"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Lancasters inspired decision to have no back 3 cover and to therefore have to stick Burrell on the wing, defending against some very talented international WINGERS who play there every week...

No no no, because what if our 12 got injured?!
WHAT IF?!?!?!?
It makes much more sense to cover that one position and rearrange the rest of the backline.

 

[yaboyjj]

I would probably start Lawes,Parling and Wood to help with Tom Youngs throwing. But then Haskell shouldn't be in the 20 shirt as he isn't a great impact sub IMO. I always thought he use to be quite quick but he seems to have put on more muscle but not enough to make him a Fearns/Ewers enforcer, should lose a little and he can be better over the ball.

I agree with the logic of Parling and Lawes on with Youngs in the lineout- add in Wood and nothing can go....wrong?
We need something to counter the French subs, so Attwood on the bench might be a good call + Vunipola, Brookes.... Hartley - Ewers was also built for this scenario <_<

BTW I think Corbs was actually talked up as replacing Marler in the starting line-up... that would be a big call (apparently to dominate the scrum).

I've been thinking that there seems to be a bit of correlation between the forwards dropping off in form (Marler, Hask, Attwood, Hartley) and the amount they have played over the last year? Whereas the guys having had a rest from injury, have added a lot more energy (Youngs, Cole, Lawes, Vunipola, Parling) Thoughts?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Robshaw to me hasn't gone down hill and he has played a ton of rugby this last 2 years. I also agree that against France Ewers coming off the bench would help combat Debaty, Antonio, and the other big guys that will come on.

 

[yaboyjj]

Robshaw to me hasn't gone down hill and he has played a ton of rugby this last 2 years. I also agree that against France Ewers coming off the bench would help combat Debaty, Antonio, and the other big guys that will come on.

I think Robshaw had a short-ish period off with his shoulder injury in December? (maybe only 3-4 weeks), but he has always been Mr. consistent.

 

[msf]

Yeah, Mr. Consistently Mediocre. Something that no one mentions these days is that it took Robshaw until he was 25 to actually start for England. Can you (not you, good no 10) think of any other 'world-class' forwards who took this long to break through? Neil Back perhaps, but that was because he was a midget, and they thought midgets were bad in those days. How old was Richie McCaw? Michael Hooper? I think the fact that he wasn't 'world-class' until he was in his mid-20s shows that he is simply an average player who works very hard.

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And before you blame Johnson poor selection skills, Johnson has almost the same win-loss ratio as Lancaster, so why should we trust Lancaster's judgement over his, or over that of Gatland, who is obviously a better manager?

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I was trying to think of a comparable player, and the best one I can come up with is Martin Corry - who was also made England captain despite only ever being an average player.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Duane Vermeulen started at 25. Willem Alberts at 25. Kieran Read at 23. John Hayes at 26.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think the major problem with Robshaw is he is playing in a position he doesn't have the correct skillset for. The thing is we don't threaten enough breakdowns. Now maybe we don't aim to but that same menality of ignoring breakdown work means we are also crap at defending our own breakdowns. Now that can't be ignored. We lack players who can consistantly and convincingly clear out the ruck. So often I'm worried we are going to get pinged for infringements at the ruck like holding on as we never look comfortable there.

 

[goodNumber10]

I was trying to think of a comparable player, and the best one I can come up with is Martin Corry - who was also made England captain despite only ever being an average player.

Corry reminds me of Phil de Glanville in most uninspiring England captain ever....

I think that's a bit unfair on Robshaw though, he's a 6 playing like a 6 with a 7 on his shirt. We all criticise him for playing like a 6 but if England balanced it out with a well skilled player at 6 who complimented him he'd be superb (IMHO).

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I think Robshaw had a short-ish period off with his shoulder injury in December? (maybe only 3-4 weeks), but he has always been Mr. consistent.

In this day and age, and leading through these kind of years there are ample performance management systems about for this not to be a case - look at Michael Hooper, he played all of last years super 15 plus June Window, plus RC plus EOYT because they used the IBM's "red/amber/green"**** system to monitor his performance. Pre-emptive injury and fatigue managment is standard in elite sport now days.


****can't remember it's exact name but ti works on those principles.

 

[yaboyjj]

Corry reminds me of Phil de Glanville in most uninspiring England captain ever....

I think that's a bit unfair on Robshaw though, he's a 6 playing like a 6 with a 7 on his shirt. We all criticise him for playing like a 6 but if England balanced it out with a well skilled player at 6 who complimented him he'd be superb (IMHO).

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In this day and age, and leading through these kind of years there are ample performance management systems about for this not to be a case - look at Michael Hooper, he played all of last years super 15 plus June Window, plus RC plus EOYT because they used the IBM's "red/amber/green"**** system to monitor his performance. Pre-emptive injury and fatigue managment is standard in elite sport now days.


****can't remember it's exact name but ti works on those principles.

What skills would that ideal no.6 have in you opinion?

 

[goodNumber10]

What skills would that ideal no.6 have in you opinion?

Well this is it isn't it? I don't think it's an easy/simple answer.

As England play a similar system to SA - Wood is probably more akin to filling the classic 7 role, and the ideal compliment to Robshaw in his current role would be a big powerful 6 who carries hard on ball and smashes in defence and allows Robshaw to get off early - i think Haskell is too much of the same, and Robshaw strangely looked quite the fetcher when England played an out and out ball carrier like Johnson (heaven forbid).

I think a more pertinent question is what pack you'd pick, as you can't just bolt a fetcher onto the current England pack and expect him to dominate.

On a slight tangent if i could pick any england 7 from history I'd go for Winterbottom

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Magnus Lund.

 

[msf]

Saffcen, you were making a decent point until you mentioned John Hayes. I don't know SA rugby well, but I imagine Peter De Villiers' poor selection skills were partly responsible for the first two not being picked earlier. Wasn't he the one that played Spies for ages even though he never actually did much? Plus they had players of the calibre of Smith, Burger and Brussow to choose from, whereas Croft, Haskell and an aging Moody were keeping Robshaw out of the England team.

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The thing is, Robshaw doesn't have the skills to be a world-class 6 either - he isn't great in the line out, and isn't a big tackler or carrier.

 

[valley commando]

Well this is it isn't it? I don't think it's an easy/simple answer.

As England play a similar system to SA - Wood is probably more akin to filling the classic 7 role, and the ideal compliment to Robshaw in his current role would be a big powerful 6 who carries hard on ball and smashes in defence and allows Robshaw to get off early - i think Haskell is too much of the same, and Robshaw strangely looked quite the fetcher when England played an out and out ball carrier like Johnson (heaven forbid).

I think a more pertinent question is what pack you'd pick, as you can't just bolt a fetcher onto the current England pack and expect him to dominate.

On a slight tangent if i could pick any england 7 from history I'd go for Winterbottom

Armitage is the best England 7 currently playing and his name alone on the team sheet come the world cup will be the only thing that would worry me.

 

[goodNumber10]

Armitage is the best England 7 currently playing and his name alone on the team sheet come the world cup will be the only thing that would worry me.

Armitage would be almost completely ineffectual behind this England pack.

 

[yaboyjj]

Watching back the NZ match in 2012, the clear out work from rucks is ferocious- I think its clear what guys like Launch, Morgan add to the team- also Tom Youngs was very good at trucking up the ball. Parling was also playing that day, he never has a bad game in an England shirt- I think Lawes, Parling might be a good partnership on Saturday with Attwood on the bench.

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Lawes
Parling
Robshaw
Haskell
Vunipola

Not the best England can put out (injuries etc) but it looks pretty good.
For the world cup, I think only Launch, Morgan, (on form) Wood and mayyybe Corbs will change from this.

Toulon's pack pretty much bully everyone else, which gives Armitage a nice time of it running around looking for turnoves etc... that would not be the case for England. I still think a player like Itoje could be a good fit for the 6 shirt post world cup (assuming it remains Robshaw/Vunipola at 6/8) as an enforcer/lineout/ball carrier hybrid.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Saffcen, you were making a decent point until you mentioned John Hayes. I don't know SA rugby well, but I imagine Peter De Villiers' poor selection skills were partly responsible for the first two not being picked earlier. Wasn't he the one that played Spies for ages even though he never actually did much? Plus they had players of the calibre of Smith, Burger and Brussow to choose from, whereas Croft, Haskell and an aging Moody were keeping Robshaw out of the England team.

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The thing is, Robshaw doesn't have the skills to be a world-class 6 either - he isn't great in the line out, and isn't a big tackler or carrier.

A lot of SA coaches seem to pick from one SA franchise. Not the whole team obviously but Meyer picked a lot of Sharks players when we first played them. De Villiers I think was quite Bulls orientated during his tenure, but even Meyer picked Spies until his injury. With Robshaw I think a lot of people were calling for him to be included, but he didn't fit what Johnson wanted from his flankers (even though he is very similar to Moody IMO) so he wasn't selected.

Well this is it isn't it? I don't think it's an easy/simple answer.

As England play a similar system to SA - Wood is probably more akin to filling the classic 7 role, and the ideal compliment to Robshaw in his current role would be a big powerful 6 who carries hard on ball and smashes in defence and allows Robshaw to get off early - i think Haskell is too much of the same, and Robshaw strangely looked quite the fetcher when England played an out and out ball carrier like Johnson (heaven forbid).

I think a more pertinent question is what pack you'd pick, as you can't just bolt a fetcher onto the current England pack and expect him to dominate.

On a slight tangent if i could pick any england 7 from history I'd go for Winterbottom

On the England pack without the restrictions from who you can pick.
1-Corbisiero
2-George
3-Cole
4-Launchbury
5-Lawes
6-Fearns
7-Robshaw
8-Morgan
16-Youngs
17-Vunipola
18-Brookes
19-Attwood
20-Kvesic/Ewers
To me that pack has everything you need in it. George, Cole and Launchbury are all very good over the ball, everyone in the pack likes to tackle. Fearns, Corbs and Morgan are all good carrying options. Robshaw is a good grunt work guy and Lawes is a brilliant lock for adding pace into defence and putting pressure on the 10. The bench is powerful and depending on how the game is going Ewers or Kvesic can be used to make an actual difference. For Example if it has been raining down in France a player like Ewers coming on for Morgan/Fearns can help add carrying threat/ if we are playing an open game against Australia than Kvesic's running and tackling becomes more useful.