[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: Wales vs Italy (05/09/15)

[Shaggy]

Do you think gatland will play 2 7's warburton and tipuric or play Warburton and Lydiate just to have a 6 and 7 in the back row even though tipurics in pretty good form..

Would It be to outlandish to play Lydiate at 8?

The Aussies looked good playing hooper and pocock in the RC..

It would certainly be worth a try playing two opensides, particularly against the Wallabies IMO; you will probably see both Hooper and Pocock for a significant part of the game (so you could counter that), as Palu isn't the player he once was, and looks to me as if he might struggle to play the full 80 mins if he was required to do so.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It'd be stupid to play Lydiate at 8 considering he has absolutely no carrying game whatsoever.

 

[j'nuh]

If there's anything we've learnt about Gatland it's that he likes consistency. Think back to how long it took Webb and Biggar to overtake Phillips and Priestland, and how Cuthbert continues in the XV. The exception seems to be that he doesn't like unfit players and will drop them quite fast for it.

I don't see Faletau being dropped at all, far too much credit in the bank. Tipuric might make the XV ahead of Lydiate, but I still reckon Gatland is too conservative to make that call. Lydiate has an unreplaceable physicality in defence that Gatland probably likes, since he likes his team to be defensively-minded.

 

[Peat]

Not sure I'd agree with Tipuric and Warburton as the best counter to Hooper and Pocock. The best way to protect your own ball from is by having players in support hitting hard. Lydiate hits harder than Tipuric and I don't think Wales will be going at a pace that Lydiate can't keep up with. In defence, omitting Lydiate probably results in Warburton doing less jackalling and more tackling, with Tipuric doing most of it himself. Is that a plus?

The big plus of Tipuric for me, imo, is it significantly improves Wales ball in hand going forwards, although not the point they could drop Faletau for Lydiate. Is that going to be stronger than Lydiate's solidity in the contact zone? I'd like to gamble on it myself, but not sure I'd blame Gatland for not wanting to.

 

[AzaMatt]

Do you think gatland will play 2 7's warburton and tipuric or play Warburton and Lydiate just to have a 6 and 7 in the back row even though tipurics in pretty good form..

Would It be to outlandish to play Lydiate at 8?

The Aussies looked good playing hooper and pocock in the RC..

although some people are dismissing this idea. gatland actually said they are trying out other cominations so falatau can have a rest if need be, he mentioned either lydiate, king or warburton at 8, with presumably tipuric coming in at 7. he said about falatau

"He’s a very important cog for us, but we have to make sure we can cover him, so we are looking at James and asking can Dan Lydiate fill that role or even Sam as well." - from walesonline article http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rugby-world-cup-2015-wales-9988438

so this might happen if falatau should get injured (but not ruling him out, otherwise im guessing moriaty would be called up). im willing to bet captain sam wont play the uruguay game though, with tipuric playing 7 instead.

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Not sure I'd agree with Tipuric and Warburton as the best counter to Hooper and Pocock. The best way to protect your own ball from is by having players in support hitting hard. Lydiate hits harder than Tipuric and I don't think Wales will be going at a pace that Lydiate can't keep up with. In defence, omitting Lydiate probably results in Warburton doing less jackalling and more tackling, with Tipuric doing most of it himself. Is that a plus?

The big plus of Tipuric for me, imo, is it significantly improves Wales ball in hand going forwards, although not the point they could drop Faletau for Lydiate. Is that going to be stronger than Lydiate's solidity in the contact zone? I'd like to gamble on it myself, but not sure I'd blame Gatland for not wanting to.

i agree tipuric's handling is excellent, we do have a lilttle better handling now with Scott williams at outside centre (apart from that shocking first ireland game, a rare off game for him).

there were still far too many knock-ons in the italy game though, even losing the ball in contact much more than we normally do. hopefully we'll sort this out before the first game

 

[dullonien]

We could potentially mix and match depending on the oppo. V England we could realistically play Tips and Warbs together in order to expose England ruck time. V Fiji, we'd want to strangle their exciting backs by physically dominating their forwards, so Lyds and Warbs makes sense. Moriarty could have been a good fit too if he was included with his aggression and physicality at 8. It would then be a question of what we'd want to do v Aus? Counter fire with fire, picking dual opensides and playing a more expansive game, or sticking with Lyds and shutting the game down a little? I'm not sure what's best, the latter has gotten us close v Aus in the past (arguably should have won a fair few), but hasn't gotten us over the line.

That's how I'd like to see Gatland approach the situation anyway.

 

[AzaMatt]

We could potentially mix and match depending on the oppo. V England we could realistically play Tips and Warbs together in order to expose England ruck time. V Fiji, we'd want to strangle their exciting backs by physically dominating their forwards, so Lyds and Warbs makes sense. Moriarty could have been a good fit too if he was included with his aggression and physicality at 8. It would then be a question of what we'd want to do v Aus? Counter fire with fire, picking dual opensides and playing a more expansive game, or sticking with Lyds and shutting the game down a little? I'm not sure what's best, the latter has gotten us close v Aus in the past (arguably should have won a fair few), but hasn't gotten us over the line.

That's how I'd like to see Gatland approach the situation anyway.

i think the best option for england would be tips and warburton, although i dont think it will happen. england are quite effective at the ruck, but not very quick at getting there, tipuric is quicker than warburton and could get there before the england pack for the turnover. for Aus i agree should be lydiate and warb so we can dominate at rucks, clearing out etc. it does seem to work v Aus but we just seem to conceed in the last 10 all the time. we seem to be getting better at holding people out though

 

[valley commando]

i think the best option for england would be tips and warburton, although i dont think it will happen. england are quite effective at the ruck, but not very quick at getting there, tipuric is quicker than warburton and could get there before the england pack for the turnover. for Aus i agree should be lydiate and warb so we can dominate at rucks, clearing out etc. it does seem to work v Aus but we just seem to conceed in the last 10 all the time. we seem to be getting better at holding people out though

Yes you are right we have to expose the English back row and by playing Tips and Warbs we will the breakdown and the match, if we go with Lydiate and Warbs its a 50/50 game.

 

[chippieolamus]

i think the best option for england would be tips and warburton, although i dont think it will happen. england are quite effective at the ruck, but not very quick at getting there, tipuric is quicker than warburton and could get there before the england pack for the turnover. for Aus i agree should be lydiate and warb so we can dominate at rucks, clearing out etc. it does seem to work v Aus but we just seem to conceed in the last 10 all the time. we seem to be getting better at holding people out though

We're honestly not. The pack doesn't have enough bulk, and seem to be told to pause before hitting a ruck, not sure why. It's one of the weakest areas of our game.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Method to madness?

We're honestly not. The pack doesn't have enough bulk, and seem to be told to pause before hitting a ruck, not sure why. It's one of the weakest areas of our game.

I've noticed this too and its not by accident. I suspect the hands of Farrell in this, the more people in the line the stronger the defence. What hasnt been properly appreciated is that the delay in contesting pretty much end turnover chances and you get to see what the Irish were doing where the tackler simply stands in the ruck area being a massive pain in the arse for the 9.

I don't reckon gatland will do it but I fear a tips, warbs combo over their conventional back row where I think despite the welsh being marginally better man for man England understand how to neutralise it. The thought of robshaw and wood working out who deals with who doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Maverick1987]

I've noticed this too and its not by accident. I suspect the hands of Farrell in this, the more people in the line the stronger the defence. What hasnt been properly appreciated is that the delay in contesting pretty much end turnover chances and you get to see what the Irish were doing where the tackler simply stands in the ruck area being a massive pain in the arse for the 9.

I don't reckon gatland will do it but I fear a tips, warbs combo over their conventional back row where I think despite the welsh being marginally better man for man England understand how to neutralise it. The thought of robshaw and wood working out who deals with who doesn't bear thinking about.

I can't see that Wales are better man for man than England to be honest . In areas they are better but we are better in other areas too . There isn't many players in Wales I'd swap for their opposite number in England tbh especially if you discount Webb and Halfpenny . Although Tipuric would be one of the ones we'd love to have

 

[Maverick1987]

Yes you are right we have to expose the English back row and by playing Tips and Warbs we will the breakdown and the match, if we go with Lydiate and Warbs its a 50/50 game.

I'm not sure it's as simple as you make out to be honest . A little like me saying if England won the scrum battle we win the match . It doesn't work like that . I think it's a 50/50 match whoever plays

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I kinda disagree - some places they're better man for man, but unit for unit I'd take England.

Alun Wyn Jones is one of the best locks in the world, but I'd take our second row over Wales'.
Warburton is fantastic, on song, but I'd take our first choice/on form back row over Wales'.
etc.

I think England are a good example of a "team" rather than individuals - much like Exeter in the premiership. There aren't that many players, if any, you'd say are the best in their position, but as a combined unit they work well off of each other (when they're on form/in tune, anyway).

 

[AzaMatt]

I kinda disagree - some places they're better man for man, but unit for unit I'd take England.

Alun Wyn Jones is one of the best locks in the world, but I'd take our second row over Wales'.
Warburton is fantastic, on song, but I'd take our first choice/on form back row over Wales'.
etc..

certainly a fair comment,

And if we lose Alun Wyn to injury as well then i do fear for our chances. its bad enough without webb and to a lesser extent halfpenny but without AWJ's work rate up front we would struggle in any game. Chateris and ball are good locks but AWJ is in a different league entirely

 

[TobesHodges]

I think depth on the bench is where we pip Wales most, pretty much everyone on our bench could be in the 1st XV quite easily plus we hold real impact players like mako and billy, youngs if he benches.. I don't think the same could be said for the Welsh bench, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not to sure who they would have on the bench apart from Lydiate or Tipuric..

 

[AzaMatt]

I think depth on the bench is where we pip Wales most, pretty much everyone on our bench could be in the 1st XV quite easily plus we hold real impact players like mako and billy, youngs if he benches.. I don't think the same could be said for the Welsh bench, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not to sure who they would have on the bench apart from Lydiate or Tipuric..

tips/lydiate are pretty good subs, the only other pretty even subs would be owens/baldwin at hooker, baldwin maybe slightly better but owens is almost there, just needs to work on his line-out throws more. paul james at LH is probably a better scrummager than gethin jenkins but not as good in the loose, so depends what we need. other than that i dont think any of our other probable subs are in the same class as the starter of their position (priestland, matthew morgan, eli walker, hallam amos, Tom Francis/samson lee) . the exception being one of the wings at the moment are really pushing cuthbert for his position, he has been very very poor lately

 

[valley commando]

I kinda disagree - some places they're better man for man, but unit for unit I'd take England.

Alun Wyn Jones is one of the best locks in the world, but I'd take our second row over Wales'.
Warburton is fantastic, on song, but I'd take our first choice/on form back row over Wales'.
etc.

I think England are a good example of a "team" rather than individuals - much like Exeter in the premiership. There aren't that many players, if any, you'd say are the best in their position, but as a combined unit they work well off of each other (when they're on form/in tune, anyway).

Front row Melon is better than the English option and I feel we are better at hooker as well.
2nd row AW is better than the English option but however we play with him I think Englands option is probably better.
Back row wales have options in each position than England.
Half backs Biggar is better than English options, England better at SH.
Centres if Williams and Roberts are fit they are better than the English pairing.
Wings 50/50, we would be better on Norths side whilst England better on the other wing.
FB If Liam Williams is fit for the whole tournament he will shine, much as I like Brown I would rather Williams in my side.

Tipuric is a pretty decent place kicker according to Warbs in the Telegraph today, is there nothing the man can't do.

 

[Raggs]

Front row Melon is better than the English option and I feel we are better at hooker as well.
2nd row AW is better than the English option but however we play with him I think Englands option is probably better.
Back row wales have options in each position than England.
Half backs Biggar is better than English options, England better at SH.
Centres if Williams and Roberts are fit they are better than the English pairing.
Wings 50/50, we would be better on Norths side whilst England better on the other wing.
FB If Liam Williams is fit for the whole tournament he will shine, much as I like Brown I would rather Williams in my side.

Tipuric is a pretty decent place kicker according to Warbs in the Telegraph today, is there nothing the man can't do.

Funny, Walesonline did a similarly balanced analysis before the 6N.

 

[TobesHodges]

Front row Melon is better than the English option and I feel we are better at hooker as well.
2nd row AW is better than the English option but however we play with him I think Englands option is probably better.
Back row wales have options in each position than England.
Half backs Biggar is better than English options, England better at SH.
Centres if Williams and Roberts are fit they are better than the English pairing.
Wings 50/50, we would be better on Norths side whilst England better on the other wing.
FB If Liam Williams is fit for the whole tournament he will shine, much as I like Brown I would rather Williams in my side.

Tipuric is a pretty decent place kicker according to Warbs in the Telegraph today, is there nothing the man can't do.

With this analysis why have a tournament? Just give the Cup to Wales! You never seize to amaze me Valley..

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Funny, Walesonline did a similarly balanced analysis before the 6N.

I remember Walesonline comparing their 2013 side to the England 2003 side and concluding that Wales are better