[2015 RWC] Warm Up Match: England vs Ireland (05/09/15)

[ratsapprentice]

Did you watch it?

He took far too long - the TMO's remit is to make the correct decision - if he can't do so efficiently then he isn't suitable for the job.

 

[smartcooky]

Did you watch it?

He took far too long - the TMO's remit is to make the correct decision - if he can't do so efficiently then he isn't suitable for the job.

I did, LIVE and I have absolutely no problem with how long Veldsman took under the circumstances

1. NO-ONE picked up the forward pass live, not the referee, not the AR, not the commentators, nor anybody watching. It was only when the TMO questioned it that anyone even started looking.

2. From the time the try was scored (24:35) to the time the TMO contacted Owens, he had a chance to look at two replays (neither of which showed the passer's hands), 55 seconds elapsed. This part of the time wasting criticism is based solely on the fact that Veldsman spotted the infringement, and he needs to be allowed that time (none of which is lost if he sees no problem). He needs to be allowed time for the VTO to cue up the replays he wants to view and for him to view them... this is NOT an instant process, it takes time!! I hope I am explaining this clearly enough. If there had been no forward pass then we would not even be discussing this.

3. Owens officially signals for the TMO (making a square with his hands) and stops the clock at 25:53... 1:18 after the ball is grounded. None of this delay is the fault of the TMO, he can only work as fast as the VTO feeds him the replays.

4. Over the course of the next 58 seconds, Veldsman views 9 replays from four different angles. Taking into account some time to cue up the clips, he has about 5 seconds per clip. Some are full speed, some slow-mo with forward and reverse until he gets the one he's been asking for, the "smoking gun" zoomed clip from the sideline camera. Again, I emphasis that none of this is an instant process. The VTO has to find and cue up these clips quickly; not a trivial task. When Veldsmen sees that last sideline shot, he makes his decision and tries to pass that to Owens, but has difficulty hearing him.

I'm not sure where in all this that I can see where any time could have been saved. I have sat behind the VTO in an OB truck at a couple of Super 12 games, and I can tell you that it is not as easy to do things as quickly as some of you think.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Nice 4 point explanation - they aren't using the same technology suite you have experience of - they are, and have been, using their new Hawkeye supplied suite.
None of the delays you are talking about should occur. I'm not talking about how long he took to start his review - I'm talking about the reviews themselves.

He took too damn long to review the video in my opinion - perhaps he doesn't have the televisual acuity that people of my generation have - but if that's the case then he is not equipped to carry out his job.

 

[smartcooky]

Nice 4 point explanation - they aren't using the same technology suite you have experience of - they are, and have been, using their new Hawkeye supplied suite.
None of the delays you are talking about should occur. I'm not talking about how long he took to start his review - I'm talking about the reviews themselves.

He took too damn long to review the video in my opinion - perhaps he doesn't have the televisual acuity that people of my generation have - but if that's the case then he is not equipped to carry out his job.

The Hawkeye Innovations replay technology suite does a lot of good stuff there's no doubt. They can add a split screen and zoom features to the existing camera angles and give instant access to multiple replays, and I am aware that it all works by recording all the video streams from all the cameras in real time, making those streams available immediately. BUT (and this is a very important BUT), it still requires human intervention and input to decide how far back the TMO needs to go to find the beginning of the replay. The technology does not read the TMO's mind. More importantly, unlike other sports such as NFL, Baseball, Horse Racing and AFL, in rugby there isn't a team of replay officials watching multiple screens at the same time. We have ONE replay official and he can only watch ONE screen at at time.

I think your position on this is totally unreasonable. Shaun Veldsman took less than 1m 30s to deliver his decision from the time he was asked to do so by Nigel Owens, but he didn't get the replay he was asking for until 1m 15s into that time. Did you hear him say to Owens "be patient, we're looking for another angle".

When he got the "smoking gun" shot (the zoomed sideline replay, which was the only replay that showed the hands sufficiently well to be sure that the pass was thrown forward, and didn't just travel forwards with the passer's momentum) he delivered his decision almost straight away. If you want to blame someone, blame the VTO who took a long time to find the shot Veldsman was asking for. Of course you won't do that. Its easier to blame the match official instead.

PS: the clock was stopped, no time was lost from the game, so what the hell is the problem anyway?

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'm glad the warm up games are over, they count for very little and now we will see who is on song at the RWC in a few short days, woohoo, I'm counting the sleeps.

 

[optimuswolf]

I like other posters am concerned that this new TMO role is carried out consistently at the world cup.

Personally, I prefer the on-field referee deciding when to involve the TMO, but if the TMO is held to account for missing/not intervening when there is an offence leading up to a try then i suppose its okay.

It should be their responsibility though, not an option that allows some to be much more active than others.

In the case of the youngs pass - wtf were the commentators (and more importantly Poite) seeing. I and several friends called forward straight away as it was clear in real time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think your position on this is totally unreasonable. Shaun Veldsman took less than 1m 30s to deliver his decision from the time he was asked to do so by Nigel Owens, but he didn't get the replay he was asking for until 1m 15s into that time. Did you hear him say to Owens "be patient, we're looking for another angle".

The live shot was clear enough - I saw it was forward live - so did the TMO, which is why he told Nigel it needed to be checked.

I don't give a **** whether it's the TMO or his assistant who is borderline incompetent - they take too ****ing long.
The fact that you seem to think "less than 1m30s" isn't disruptive to the flow of the game is strange IMO.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Come on guys. Stop with the cursing.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm an adult and I'll swear when it's reasonable to do so, thank you.

 

[MojoPin]

I'm an adult and I'll swear when it's reasonable to do so, thank you.

Being an adult isn't an excuse...bottom line is it's unpleasant and unfriendly. And in a community discussion I don't think it's wrong to expect better of people and there are much better ways of articulating. Just maybe bear it in mind?

But back to the topic...it was a tough call with the TMO. Certain calls and uses I thought were fair enough but it was definitely a very fine line. Seemed like Owens was getting pretty impatient when the TMO official kept delaying but ultimately think consulting it was the right move. I'd agree that the biggest problem was finding the right angle to conclusively proved what happened.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I'm an adult and I'll swear when it's reasonable to do so, thank you.

Just trying to keep the peace.

Cursing is against Forum Rules, so try to keep it down.

There is no need to result to cursing/swearing in trying to get your point across in frustration.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Excuse?

If you're really that offended then ban me.

 

[nickdnz]

Excuse?

If you're really that offended then ban me.

Being an adult doesn't mean you are exempt from following the rules of a privately run forum.

It wasn't a big issue, but it's probably not wise to escalate things to "if you don't like it - ban me".

The staff as a collective will not be tolerating disrespectful behavior from members. We are about to enter a very busy time in the forum going into the RWC: it is up to regular members to set a good standard in the forum, particularly as we will have an influx of younger and less familiar posters.

 

[Willodell100]

Can I just say, as a newer member of this forum, that I have found this forum to be easily the best place anywhere online to discuss all things rugby.

Bring on the World Cup!

 

[Willodell100]

To come back to the Irish game I want to talk tighthead!

As a few have mentioned here before Dan Cole has not looked quite right come scrum time following the Denver trip.

I am a big fan but I have to admit Davey Wilson is one hell of a scrummager and really excelled in an England shirt right up until he got injured.

I would really like to see him start at tighthead and let Cole come on after 50mins. My feeling is he is more of an impact player than Wilson. I wouldn't call either particularly agile but Cole's work in the loose, particularly in defence is excellent and I feel pairing them this way round would suit the team better moving into the World Cup. Thoughts?

 

[optimuswolf]

I wouldn't jettison Cole so quickly. Both he and Marler were part of a v good scrum in the 6N, so i think we know who the problem is.

Much more sensible to drop youngs to the bench as he is very much an impact player. Brookes youngs vunipola is an excellent bench (although i think mako/marler is a v close call for starter).

Wilson is very much backup now. He is a good player but lacks anything special at international level.

 

[TommiG88]

I wouldn't jettison Cole so quickly. Both he and Marler were part of a v good scrum in the 6N, so i think we know who the problem is.

Much more sensible to drop youngs to the bench as he is very much an impact player. Brookes youngs vunipola is an excellent bench (although i think mako/marler is a v close call for starter).

Wilson is very much backup now. He is a good player but lacks anything special at international level.

Our scrum looked a lot stronger when George came on.

 

[chippieolamus]

People are considering dropping Cole, our only player who would get near a world XV? Madness. He's played poorly in 2 warm up games, not really much to be concerned about - we seem very trigger happy with dropping players for England, and I think its one of the main reasons we've struggled to nail down good combinations in various positions, almost every player has been dropped occasionally after just 2-3 games of poor form.

 

[TobesHodges]

People are considering dropping Cole, our only player who would get near a world XV? Madness. He's played poorly in 2 warm up games, not really much to be concerned about - we seem very trigger happy with dropping players for England, and I think its one of the main reasons we've struggled to nail down good combinations in various positions, almost every player has been dropped occasionally after just 2-3 games of poor form.

I could not agree more, Cole is World Class, just remember the saying, "Form comes and goes but Class is permanent", he is a top Prop and there's no way IMO we can just drop him.. Tigs is going to bottle someone for this..

 

[The Jones Boy]

Dan Cole is an excellent prop, England would be crazy to drop him.
I have never seen him have the kind of horror day at the races like Marler did against the young French lad in Paris.