[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Tonga (09/10/2015)

[TobesHodges]

A little off Topic but was watching Ben Tameifuna and do you think we will see him in an AB shirt eventually, he's only 24, but I've never heard anyone consider him.. He's a pretty decent prop and is huge!
Will he come into the AB in the next few years or not?
Is there a consensus on him in NZ.. Just feel he'll be biting a waste him NZ dont use him..

 

[Kiwi_]

A little off Topic but was watching Ben Tameifuna and do you think we will see him in an AB shirt eventually, he's only 24, but I've never heard anyone consider him.. He's a pretty decent prop and is huge!
Will he come into the AB in the next few years or not?
Is there a consensus on him in NZ.. Just feel he'll be biting a waste him NZ dont use him..

Maybe, he played well for parts of the SR season and nearly earned an AB spot, well at least nearly put his name in the running, but his lack of discipline in that cynical Chiefs pack cost him a lot. He can be lazy and throw the game at times and is not a professional enough character I've heard. If he matures more and tightens up areas of his game, he definitely has potential I think. He's looking good in the ITM at the moment!

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Hansen said after the Chiefs vs Highlanders Quarter-Final someone had played their way out off an AB spot and I'm almost convinced it was him, the amount of penalties he gave away and the blatant penalties he gave away were not exactly what Hansen wanted going into a knock-out tournament where refs will be looking to penalize us.

 

[nickdnz]

You really can be a sour arrogant douche sometimes.

Here let me try;

"Ahem, his tackling stats are slightly better to the inform said player and his other minor stat shows that he farted more in the oppositions face, so therefore he is the better than the said inform player rendering you a dumbass for even questioning this, even though all other aspects of his game are well under par which you can see from simply watching the game".

Your impression is uncanny. The fart in face statistics line as well. Great stuff.


I was actually characterizing New Zealanders reactions on the whole. It seems everyone is far too knee-jerk to what has been a frustrating but not doomsday level concerning reaction to messy but comfortable wins over unlikely to win opposition. It wasn't specific to you.

Please watch the name calling.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Kiwis, just relax, when the opportunity to get revenge on the French at the Millennium with dear old Uncle Wayne becomes apparent, we will explode with anticipation and fizz for the full 80 minutes.
God help those Frogs when we get our hands on them this time.

 

[nickdnz]

A little off Topic but was watching Ben Tameifuna and do you think we will see him in an AB shirt eventually, he's only 24, but I've never heard anyone consider him.. He's a pretty decent prop and is huge!
Will he come into the AB in the next few years or not?
Is there a consensus on him in NZ.. Just feel he'll be biting a waste him NZ dont use him..

Almost certainly not. I agree he is a talent, and dispite his apparent chunky frame he does get around the field.

However he has poor discipline and his commitment seems to often be in question. He is heading to Racing Metro now seeing if he can play for France - before that he was going to play for Tonga...

So in short, no I dont think he will ever be an AB despite thinking he has the potential.

 

[TobesHodges]

Almost certainly not. I agree he is a talent, and dispite his apparent chunky frame he does get around the field.

However he has poor discipline and his commitment seems to often be in question. He is heading to Racing Metro now seeing if he can play for France - before that he was going to play for Tonga...

So in short, no I dont think he will ever be an AB despite thinking he has the potential.

Maybe, he played well for parts of the SR season and nearly earned an AB spot, well at least nearly put his name in the running, but his lack of discipline in that cynical Chiefs pack cost him a lot. He can be lazy and throw the game at times and is not a professional enough character I've heard. If he matures more and tightens up areas of his game, he definitely has potential I think. He's looking good in the ITM at the moment!

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Hansen said after the Chiefs vs Highlanders Quarter-Final someone had played their way out off an AB spot and I'm almost convinced it was him, the amount of penalties he gave away and the blatant penalties he gave away were not exactly what Hansen wanted going into a knock-out tournament where refs will be looking to penalize us.

Someone needs to make a 'Future AllBlack' thread, there's so much talent on show in the ITM and guys in the SR that could be pushing..

 

[Kiwi_]

Someone needs to make a 'Future AllBlack' thread, there's so much talent on show in the ITM and guys in the SR that could be pushing..

There was one a few months ago, I think it got buried with all the RWC activity, have a quick look in the recent pages in the General Union section maybe, or RC section, maybe in SR section.

 

[TobesHodges]

Yeah, maybe something for after the WC..

 

[ABs2011]

Kiwis, just relax, when the opportunity to get revenge on the French at the Millennium with dear old Uncle Wayne becomes apparent, we will explode with anticipation and fizz for the full 80 minutes.
God help those Frogs when we get our hands on them this time.

I listened to an interview with Cory Jane a few weeks back (after he missed selection) and he talked about this potential rematch, stadium and all. The way he talked about it I really felt confident we would really step iup for that one. There's a few players left over from that game which is enough to hold on to that memory and put a rocket up the guys who would potentially take the field in 2015. Cory obviously didnt play the 2007 game but he was pretty confidet the boys would be well up for a rematch. I think we beat France and beat them quite well to be honest. Definately dont want to play Ireland in the Q.

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A little off Topic but was watching Ben Tameifuna and do you think we will see him in an AB shirt eventually, he's only 24, but I've never heard anyone consider him.. He's a pretty decent prop and is huge!
Will he come into the AB in the next few years or not?
Is there a consensus on him in NZ.. Just feel he'll be biting a waste him NZ dont use him..

The other guys have pretty much said it all, but one thing to add is that he did make the wider training group for the ABs back in 2012. I dont know the details about Ben, but when players make the wider training group but arent kept around it is usually because (1) they butchedred their chance somehow, or (2) they get told to go away with some focussed work ons. Ben has had several issues during his career so it could have been either tbh. Either way though he obviously didn't do enough post 2012. In terms of 2015, I'm not sure he was ever genuinely in the mix, in part because of the French deal he signed.

As for future ABs? if you are interested I made a list of several players that have caught my eye in the ITM cup thread. Check that out if you are interested. Other people have mentioned a few players too.

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Hansen said after the Chiefs vs Highlanders Quarter-Final someone had played their way out off an AB spot and I'm almost convinced it was him, the amount of penalties he gave away and the blatant penalties he gave away were not exactly what Hansen wanted going into a knock-out tournament where refs will be looking to penalize us.

I tried to guess who that player was as well and I figured it could have been Webber. After considering it more though I think Hansen may have just been playing games and putting everyone on notice.

 

[nzlizard]

I would bet money it wasn't Ben who played himself out of contention in that game, he hasn't had a great super season since the Chiefs won the ***le last.

His brain and commitment hold him back, if he applied himself he would go all the way.

 

[ABs2011]

I was actually characterizing New Zealanders reactions on the whole. It seems everyone is far too knee-jerk to what has been a frustrating but not doomsday level concerning reaction to messy but comfortable wins over unlikely to win opposition. It wasn't specific to you.

I think there's an element of self-preservation in all this (not sure if that's the right word though). What I mean is, I think people, conciously or not, like to have a few complaints so that if the ABs dont win, they can at least fall back on some areas we could/should have done better, and hence (1) make excuses for why we didnt turn out to be the best team, and (2) have the "I told you so" factor (particularly on internet forums).

I've watched enough Rugby and enough AB dissapointments to know that neither 1 nor 2 make you feel any better when we lose.

Of course though there are some posts on here that simply demonstrate rugby ignorance. Perhaps that is a product of people's frustration, or a combination of (1) & (2) above. I'm not sure.

 

[Kiwi_]

Or maybe it's just because we're actually playing really crap at the moment.

 

[ABs2011]

Or maybe it's just because we're actually playing really crap at the moment.

No doubt the performances have been poor, but it's how AB supprters deal with that which is interesting.

I'm mainly referring this bizarre idea that you and a few others have that we are rotating players too much and mucking around with the key combinations - which as I have pointed out is simply not true. But also, how so much blame was placed on DC post Georgia. I mean there were probably only 3 players on the park who could be excused after the Georgia game yet it was pretty much Carter that got targeted.

I'll stick to my guns and say that while the last 2 games have been a bit of a concern, I'll give the current regime the benfit of the doubt given their outstanding record, and reserve serious judgement until after the Tonga game. I expect a big improvement, and given what Hansen has said during recent press conferences, I expect them to revert to a "normal" game strategy. That includes an in-play kicking game for field position, and a much greater use of the tight five to get go forward ball and lay the platform for the backs (John Mitchell made an interesting observation that there has been a distinct lack of this so far). I would also expect much better skill execution from pretty much the whole team! I am confident that by in large this will happen and the team will be ready to go for the knock-outs.

Have a little faith - I think this current team and coaching staff have earnt that!

 

[Dirty Ape]

Have a little faith - I think this current team and coaching staff have earnt that!

It's not faith, it's evidence. They have most definitely earnt our confidence.

 

[nzlizard]

If we don't perform against Tonga then we have all reason to be concerned, up until then lets just see.

The reason DC gets targeted is because #10 controls the backline, so if he is average than the rest find it hard.

 

[ABs2011]

If we don't perform against Tonga then we have all reason to be concerned, up until then lets just see.

The reason DC gets targeted is because #10 controls the backline, so if he is average than the rest find it hard.

Yup, I agree with the first part.

The second part Im not so sure about. It would be a tough argument to make to suggest that DC was the primary casue of the crap game the ABs played v Georgia.

I believe it is often the case that the 10 position is just an easy cop out target for those that struggle to analyse the game in the detail required. Mistakes at 10 are generally clear and obvious while other aspects of the game taqke a little more understanding. DC had a 2 handling errors, distributed poorly a couple times, and missed some kicks at goal, but there were 20 AB handling erros in that game, 8 penalities conceeded, a scrum that went backwards for 60 minutes, and some questionable tactics which may well have explained why a few people in key positions (Read, Smith, and DC) has quite poor games. Add to that at least 10 other guys that performed poorly by AB standards then hopefuly you can see why I dont think criticism which lays the blame squarely on DCs shoulders holds much weight!

 

[nzlizard]

You are right in a sense, its not just DC that had a bad game, however what people tend to do is

1. Compare DC to Cruden, Sopoaga or anyone else they feel should be at 10.
2. For years people have been saying forget DC lets focus on the future of 10 and develop new talent for the 2015 WC

So when the guy does bad stuff it is amplified alot given the stature and legend of the man, also 10 is a pivotal role so it always gains a lot of attention.

Was the same with FB for the last couple of years, we persisted with Dagg and 95% of the population outside of Christchurch and the AB's staff couldn't see why, now Dagg is gone Smith has the role people are happy.

For me Conrad Smith is having his worst 12 months ever and that is just as much a concern for me as DC, but people don't seem to say much about that. In fact a lot of the team are having a bad run of form in all honesty.

 

[The Jones Boy]

In terms of struggling for form the only candidate that stands out is Julian Savea, he doesn't seem comfortable when you watch him, but he's got great talent so hopefully the click will comer sooner rather than later.

 

[Shaggy]

You are right in a sense, its not just DC that had a bad game, however what people tend to do is

1. Compare DC to Cruden, Sopoaga or anyone else they feel should be at 10.
2. For years people have been saying forget DC lets focus on the future of 10 and develop new talent for the 2015 WC

So when the guy does bad stuff it is amplified alot given the stature and legend of the man, also 10 is a pivotal role so it always gains a lot of attention.

Was the same with FB for the last couple of years, we persisted with Dagg and 95% of the population outside of Christchurch and the AB's staff couldn't see why, now Dagg is gone Smith has the role people are happy.

For me Conrad Smith is having his worst 12 months ever and that is just as much a concern for me as DC, but people don't seem to say much about that. In fact a lot of the team are having a bad run of form in all honesty.

Yep, as it's been stated elsewhere, you can't really blame the 10 if the forwards aren't as dominant as we want them to be; probably a few players that weren't happy with their performances to date (I read Kaino isn't happy with his performances so far)

... As a general comment, as a supporter, the things that frustrates me the most is other supporters who continue to push the barrows of players that aren't in the squad. I get that we all have our favourite players, but just because they happen to wear a (insert your Super Franchise or ITM Cup team here) jersey, it doesn't make them better players than those ones selected. They may have been unlucky not to be selected, but the time for provincial bias should end once the squad was selected.

 

[Mcfadden]

A little off Topic but was watching Ben Tameifuna and do you think we will see him in an AB shirt eventually, he's only 24, but I've never heard anyone consider him.. He's a pretty decent prop and is huge!
Will he come into the AB in the next few years or not?
Is there a consensus on him in NZ.. Just feel he'll be biting a waste him NZ dont use him..

Just to reiterate what the others said (they kinda beat me to it), he does some good work with ball in hand. But his fitness over an 80 minute period has not always been there for a start. He is perhaps the most ill disciplined prop in New Zealand (it was only a few weeks back in the ITM where I watched him absolutely clobber someone off the ball). And his scrummaging ability has been poor in my opinion. The Chiefs had some bad weeks in the scrum this year, and he was a culprit in that. Even the commentators were kind of saying how they hope he improved on the set piece over in France (or wherever he's going).

As for some of my reactions, I've tried to keep them as moderate as possible. I probably fit under Nick's "THEY'RE TOO OLD" criticism. Because yes, the top side has felt like old men at times this year to me, and that's an opinion I've slowly developed if you've read the threads gradually over the year. In the beginning I didn't feel as though there was much between Woodcock and Crockett. Wasn't really sure who should get the nod. Woody is a proven performer in World Cups, but I feel he is symptomatic of us not quite getting to where the action is quick enough (he's only a prop, but I'm just saying, I feel Crockett is a bit better around the field). I'm not the first person to favor Vito's inclusion, but again, that isn't just something I mouthed off after one game. It was a developed opinion. I mean, at the end of the day, what's the alternative? Being like these idiot NZ trolls who show up for 5 minutes and claim that we're going to stampede our way to the cup like an elephant against an army of ants? I've tried to keep my insights as informed as possible and develop them.

What annoys me is the Sopoaga thing. He had 1 good game. And look at the context. We've already taken Naholo and Skudder. The pack would still be experienced but you don't want to just suddenly make the backline really inexperienced. I'm sure I'll get screamed down that I'm wrong about it, but I couldn't give a **** really. People just need to use their head. Despite Slade's poor bag of bones, versatility wins selections at World Cups. Why do you think they rushed to get Faumaina back? Laulala was unlucky to miss out, and I reckon he could easily be a regular starter, but I'm not just going to keep moaning about it. Just because what I want hasn't gone ahead doesn't somehow mean the alternative has no logic whatsoever. Honestly, people are so dumb. "Duuur, PICK BUCKMAN!!1"

****ing idiots. They probably expect half the Highlanders squad to ride in on King Kong's ballsack and defeat Isis as well.


I believe Hansen when he says they're holding back. Obviously. But there's a bit of BS going on too. You're not "holding back" catching a pass. The boys are just dropping them and not running the right lines, simple. And some credit has to go to the minnow teams. There have been like, 2 games that have had margins beyond 50 points, compared to 8 in 2011. But I have faith. I very much doubt the kind of sluggishness and boredom we've seen creep into the performances will be shown from the quarters onwards. I'm not saying we'll be invincible, but I'd be surprised if the boys weren't up for it 100%.