[2014 TRC] Argentina v South Africa in Salta (23/08/2014)

[goodNumber10]

Even if that were the rule, which it is not, I think Argentina would have preferred JDP to rather come on! I think any South African would have been glad for uncontested scrums.

Is it not the rule? i know a front row can come back on for an injured front row, but if they've used all their replacements i thought you had to sacrifice another player to bring the old player back on (except in a blood replacement - which this clearly wasn't).

might need Smartcooky's input on this, but if a winger for instance got injured and you've used all your sub's you can't replace him you play one man down... unless it's blood.

(anyway, Movovo didn't come on so it's a moot point.)

 

[TRF_Olyy]

From what I understand Argentinian players are finding it increasinly difficult to find clubs in France as they, unofficially, say "Choose either to play the AIs or the Rugby Championship - we won't offer you a contract if you want to play in both".
They then find it difficult to come to England as Argentinian players count towards the foreign player count in a side (this is why Tuculet moved on from Sale - we couldn't offer him as much game time as he wanted, to show off for the Argentinian coaches, because of injuries to a lot of our players forcing us to play foreigners in some positions every game, whereas we had English players we could select on the wing/at 15 in front of him).

Really hope they get signed by some decent clubs, they deserve to be playing top level rugby, and need to to keep their form alive internationally.

 

[Thingimubob]

Kinda shows how much they need a team or two in the Super 15, sooner rather than later. Between the one's still in the NH and those filling out a newly created S15 franchise, the first choice squad should be pretty much set.

I believe 2016 is the date set to introduce one right?

 

[Big Ewis]

Really hope they get signed by some decent clubs, they deserve to be playing top level rugby, and need to to keep their form alive internationally.

I agree with you, they absolutely must come to France.

 

[austingtir]

Finally saw the majority of this game last night. I have to say that Argentina isnt getting the credit they deserve from this performance. Unbelievably set piece and mauling play from them. Even their backline seemed to function alright. That last 20-30 minutes kill them every time against the other three southern hemisphere sides.... Look out if they ever figure out how to play that last quarter!!

SA were certainly out of sorts but they've played them two weeks in a row so I would of expected them to work out a side like Argentina the second time around. Will have to wait for the NZ game to see how good they are I guess.

They are certainly going to cause some country some serious problems in the WC quarters next year.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

bad luck Argentina, I got up at 5:30AM to watch this yesterday and I was cheering for the Argies but SA's experience showed in the end.

Argentina are improving and will get that 1st RC win soon enough

 

[TRF_heineken]

......but you were also crap last week too!! I really expected a raised performance this week and for the Saffers to give the Argentinians a good spanking instead of crawling over the line in a pretty poor game altogether. Yes the Argentinians threw it about but so many mistakes.....

Last week's game shouldn't be used as the measuring tool for the Boks or Argentina. And I think it has been stressed enough that that game was so crappy due to the weather. So I'd move on from that.

There's not much else to say about this game, we played horribly, and yet we still won. It could just assist us in bettering ourselves ahead of the Aussies and the All Blacks. I'm interested to see the news reports in the coming days.

As for the whole JDP coming back on again, as far as I know, the props can return to the field after being subbed, (rotate), but this only applies to the front row and not the entire bench.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Is it not the rule? i know a front row can come back on for an injured front row, but if they've used all their replacements i thought you had to sacrifice another player to bring the old player back on (except in a blood replacement - which this clearly wasn't).

Don't know the exact wording but the rule is 'special' for the front row in order to avoid uncontested scrums if possible.

Kinda shows how much they need a team or two in the Super 15, sooner rather than later. Between the one's still in the NH and those filling out a newly created S15 franchise, the first choice squad should be pretty much set.

I believe 2016 is the date set to introduce one right?

2016, yes but I expect a few of those players to sign for next year with an existing SR franchize. Though not part of the squad Manuel Carizza is currently playing for the WP and Stormers and I expect that trend to continue.

Mainly because some are past their sell by date but, more importantly, the time that this competition takes out of the European season means they are no longer employable other than as medical jokers! I think you will find that a lot of these players will be picked up on that basis.....

I really respect these players as I really do think a lot of them are making financial sacrifices in order to represent Argentin and are possibly holding out to join Super rugby which would make their participation in test rugby just much easier though they would certainly still be taking a hit in regards to what they'd be able to earn in Europe.

......but you were also crap last week too!! I really expected a raised performance this week and for the Saffers to give the Argentinians a good spanking instead of crawling over the line in a pretty poor game altogether. Yes the Argentinians threw it about but so many mistakes.....

oh how kind of you.
I appreciate some of the lucidity on this thread stating real facts about this game. As a non-Saffer neutral I'd say Boks fans don't have a whole lot to worry about and it was more a case of the Pumas playing well than it was the Boks playing awful. I mean the Boks did come storming right back from fifteen points down and won this thing. Boks still have a real chance of knocking the Blacks at home and still should beat the Wallies at least once.

LOL, as if I have any say..

I tend to agree with you. The first test was just a good old wet out and to win there while being on the back foot in the set piece was very good. I fully expected a better performance from us in Argentina but credit must go to los Pumas for keeping up if not increasing the intensity.

That said we do in fact have a number of things to worry about. Jannie and Beast have been going done for a while now and it's not just Argentina's impressive scrum though credit has to go there too. Both of us know Guthro is passed it. Malherbe brought some stability but went off injured... hope it was only something minor and only a precaution as I havn't read anything yet since Saturday. If he were out we do have options but I'd be surprised if HM didn't stick to a combination of Steenkamp, JdP and Beast as starting which I don't think will trouble either Aus or NZ in either the scrum or loose sadly. The halves remain an issue and though I trust JdV and De Allende can come right as a center partnership I am frustrated by our unwillingness to actually play rugby up until we are down by more than 10 points.. I mean it's not like our tactical kicking and defense has been all that impressive.. might as well play some rugby FFS.

But I think those are things we can deal with and I'm not all that worried, yes. On the rugby front the only thing that saddened me was our (SA) u18's losing their first game in four years... to England. That rankles.

 

[SomeOke]

I feel really bad for the Argentinians, this would have done them and their supporters a world of good and they probably deserved it.
The best I can say is that at least Meyer seems to have instilled a culture where the players never see losing as an option.

Unfortunately as much as I like them Pollard and de Allende probably still have some growing to do. We didn't get much fast clean ball and while it's tempting to blame Pienaar the Argies contested the ruck extremely well and he was under a lot of pressure, Hougard looked better in this regard but he does have more strength than Pienaar does.

In the end our tight five (and Juan Smith) let us down. even when you're a team that can swing the ball around if you're getting out muscled in the loose and out thought in the kicking game it's always going to be difficult to execute a game plan.

Not even sure what we can change, hopefully our young locks will come back next week but we just don't have tight five options at the moment.
Anyway I have to admit I succumbed to hubris before these matches began. Well down Argies for feeding the Bokke (and me) some humble pie.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I feel really bad for the Argentinians, this would have done them and their supporters a world of good and they probably deserved it.
The best I can say is that at least Meyer seems to have instilled a culture where the players never see losing as an option.

Unfortunately as much as I like them Pollard and de Allende probably still have some growing to do. We didn't get much fast clean ball and while it's tempting to blame Pienaar the Argies contested the ruck extremely well and he was under a lot of pressure, Hougard looked better in this regard but he does have more strength than Pienaar does.

In the end our tight five (and Juan Smith) let us down. even when you're a team that can swing the ball around if you're getting out muscled in the loose and out thought in the kicking game it's always going to be difficult to execute a game plan.

Not even sure what we can change, hopefully our young locks will come back next week but we just don't have tight five options at the moment.
Anyway I have to admit I succumbed to hubris before these matches began. Well down Argies for feeding the Bokke (and me) some humble pie.

Yeah, you raise a good point, we are still too slow at the breakdowns. And this is where Aus and NZ will punish us.

I see Matfield and Alberts will join the squad tomorrow when they travel to Australia.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Sport24.co.za says Malherbe's out for the rest of the tournament. That is a blow. Cobus Visagie has called for Brian Mujati to be called in but I doubt it's a possibility what with the government interfering and Mujati himself having stated (and not having said anything to indicate a change of heart since) that he doesn't want to play for the Bokke again.
So.. what now. Even if HM would have been inclined to call in Redelinghuys he is also out injured. We've made the right call on dropping Oosthuizen but we might have to go back on that decision or call in reinforments from Europe though who that'd be I wouldn't know. I would be happy if we were to call up Heinke van der Merwe at loose head but at tight head I don't know where to now?
I do expect changes in the pack and at 9 or at least I hope we see some changes now. We were all calling for Pienaar and our props to be dropped and maybe these two games are a blessing forcing HM's hand while not resulting in an actual loss. I know HM's hand has been effected with injury and him not wanting to make wholesale changes but something has to happen now. We have some glaring soft spots.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I agree with you, they absolutely must come to France.

In fairness if they joined Toulon the owner would be more than happy for them too play all available internationals. He is very good too his players, Noves on the other hand.....

 

[TRF_heineken]

Sport24.co.za says Malherbe's out for the rest of the tournament. That is a blow. Cobus Visagie has called for Brian Mujati to be called in but I doubt it's a possibility what with the government interfering and Mujati himself having stated (and not having said anything to indicate a change of heart since) that he doesn't want to play for the Bokke again.
So.. what now. Even if HM would have been inclined to call in Redelinghuys he is also out injured. We've made the right call on dropping Oosthuizen but we might have to go back on that decision or call in reinforments from Europe though who that'd be I wouldn't know. I would be happy if we were to call up Heinke van der Merwe at loose head but at tight head I don't know where to now?
I do expect changes in the pack and at 9 or at least I hope we see some changes now. We were all calling for Pienaar and our props to be dropped and maybe these two games are a blessing forcing HM's hand while not resulting in an actual loss. I know HM's hand has been effected with injury and him not wanting to make wholesale changes but something has to happen now. We have some glaring soft spots.

Well, we could call up already capped Springbok BJ Botha...

The question now however is who is left? There's a bunch of proper tightheads playing in the NH. but here in SA we don't have many guys who could fill the void now. So there is a possibility we might see another newly capped player in 2 weeks time.

 

[Icemn]

#smoorwen... wow, ARG, up you

you deserved to win this one and in my mind you did, this is in my books a good loss and for SA a bad win... ARG is on the up and SA on the down and out... too bad history will reflect it as a win for SA, but for those who saw the game knows better...

SA only weapon are the forwards, mauls, scrums and lineouts... and ARG dominated them... morne will prob get a start now, so you'd only go further backwards...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Well, we could call up already capped Springbok BJ Botha...

The question now however is who is left? There's a bunch of proper tightheads playing in the NH. but here in SA we don't have many guys who could fill the void now. So there is a possibility we might see another newly capped player in 2 weeks time.

A tricky one, yes. Adriaanse also injured.

I guess we could just start Marcel van der Merwe. He's already in the squad. I never saw him as a starter but we might as well. He is surely not a step back ITO the scrum from Jannie and would add a ton in the loose at least.

The way I see our TH situation ATM;

1 Jannie du Plessis - (#1 in HM's book at least) fit but so overplayed and off form he might/should get dropped and not picked up again
2 Brian Mujati - probably not an option due to politics (both his personal and our governmental)
3 Frans Malherbe - injured
4 Julian Redelinghuys - injured
5 Lourens Adriaanse - injured
6 Marcel van der Merwe - my pick
7 Coenie Oosthuizen - rightly dropped but we could call him in again??? I actually hope not
? I'm not sure what types of form our European based TH's are in

 

[TRF_heineken]

A tricky one, yes. Adriaanse also injured.

I guess we could just start Marcel van der Merwe. He's already in the squad. I never saw him as a starter but we might as well. He is surely not a step back ITO the scrum from Jannie and would add a ton in the loose at least.

yeah, but he's also more of a loosehead than a tighthead. I would play him ahead of Guthro though. Guthro was just terrible on Saturday.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Well, we'll probably see Jannie start in any case in a "HM shows faith in player" type of PR move.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, we'll probably see Jannie start in any case in a "HM shows faith in player" type of PR move.

Haha, by the lack of other available options.

I dread to think that Werner Kruger might be called up as he is a Springbok, and playing in SA... Just don't know about his fitness

 

[Peat]

good point. It's definitely that Pumas' recklessness that has surprised the Boks....twice in a row now. But Wales weren't all that "reckless" themselves in Test 2. They just beat them up with their pack, fought like crazy at the bdown, shook em in the scrum, and had good continuity in their game.
Things change oh so rapidly in sports, and Rugby in particular really, but right now (although this is silly because it's totally unfounded and could prove to be completely wrong) I'd say maybe England can fancy their chances of getting that long-awaited Boks scalp in November. Although surely the Boks will show up BIG time for that.

There is - and I apologise for stating the obvious - a place between recklessness and conservatism; a style of rugby based on calculated gambles and constant intelligent appraisal of the options.

And while I believe you need to play that sort of rugby to beat the Bokke, you must also take it to them up front as well. You have to meet their big men head on at the very least and neutralise them.

But I firmly believe that once you've created the space, the smart thing is to work the ball as wide as is sensible; there's no point giving the behemoths a second bite at the cherry. As you point out, Wales had good continuity; keeps them running and moving.

Argentina had the right idea but executed poorly. Credit to the Boks in that sense at least, they put on a lot of pressure, and were opportunistic enough to turn one of those turnovers into points. I'd advance a theory that maybe pursuit of the all important first win is playing on the Argies' mind a little too much, making them a bit too fired up, a bit too reckless.

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah I agree JdP has turned into one of those national squad regulars for S.A. where he's there by default because he was once well functional and effective but is now a bit of a stubborn pick, who keeps continuity/stability in the starting XV. Habana could've been one of those, but he happens to still be the deadliest winger in the world.

And I insist the Pumas really showed up, you don't just globally dominate a game against the Springboks, you still have to answer present in the physicality department and they're fkn huge and that's regardless of how good/bad a game they're having. Wales and Argentina just happened to have erupted against the same foe, but it doesn't make South Africa a lesser side. I reiterate it just shows "well yeah, other teams than just New Zealand CAN beat them".

At the end of the day, South Africa will continue playing their very well established, simple game. Nothing to get confused about, so they'll be consistent and only get better. They STILL haven't lost a game to anybody else but NZ in years, despite both Pumas and the one Welsh incidents lately. It's good for them they get wakeup calls like this, in fact a *blessing*, while still not even having to pay cash for it (no losses, just scares). The benefit of a free lesson, twice now. Much better than feeling invulnerable and then taking a pounding in England or maybe Ireland next November.