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2014 QBE Internationals [EOYT] England

well then, I've just sat through the whole game, and (Surprise!) I don't agree about Farrell at all - i felt he made a couple of mistakes just before he came off, but I didn't feel Ford "came on and changed our attack", and i didn't feel Farrell was as poor as people made out in the first 55 minutes (more on the attack later).

On the substitution it's not his call, the fourth official calls it, he can't choose to stay on if the refs been told - so they never made the sub.

I'd still play Ford next week, because i think Farrell is unfit - i think his decision making went bad around 45 mins because he's not fit enough to play a full 60-70 min game. In fact i wouldn't play Farrell at all next week, i'd let him rest and bring in Myler on the bench.

Here is what i think on the actual game, and why we lost:

Problem one: We didn't protect the ball well enough in the contact in the first half - in bad weather, with rain and a greasy surface we should have been going in shoulders low and hips turned, instead our forwards were looking for the pass/offload.

Problem two: Our attack is stifled, our backs sat flat and narrow (bad weather accounts for the second). The reason our backs were sitting flat is because our ball died in the contact area, our ball died in the contact area because our forwards are a carrying isolated and from a standing start - we are actually playing exactly how Australia have been this summer, we're looking for that distributing forward but we don't understand how to do it - we'd be much better off just flying around the corner getting Hartley, Robshaw, Lawes, et al carrying off 9 and inside 10.

And THAT is why our backs are so flat and why we are struggling to move the ball off second/multiple phase ball.

We need to come onto the ball, for example; Marler (not specific) standing still 2-3 meters back is useless. Especially if he then lumbers two three steps forward only to pass to a one out runner. It is pointless if they are not both hitting the same channel. For example; if Marler carries one side of Lambie - Robshaw attacks the other. If Lambie bites in Marler passes to Robshaw on an unders line, if he doesn't he carries and Robshaw become the hammer to Marler's nail. If Robshaw carries then Marler becomes the cleaner.

And that's why we're struggling so badly, and that's why our ruck ball is sh*t, and that's why our backs are pedestrian.

Problem Three: Conditioning. As i said about Farrell, i think the same rings true for a lot of the squad. Billy V, Marler, Care, Brown - I think we are badly under condition for this level of Rugby. I don't know if this is a mismatch between our club and national set ups but these guys are not fit enough to keep pace with NZ and SA. SA didn't play well, but the one thing they didn't do is come off the pace at any point in the game. We look heavy on the ball, and that half a yard of oxygen in the second & third 20's is really impacting our contact area in both attack and defence.

Running through the team:
01: Marler - solid set piece, poor in the loose on attack. Think people underestimate his defence and how much he contributes to our lineout. 5/10
02: Hartley - well, Hartley, deserved Yellow, carried well at times - good set piece. 5/10
03: Wilson - as above 6/10
04: Lawes - yep, what you'd expect but a lack of team cohesion impacted on his effectivness. 7/10
05: Attwood - Monster, awesome in the loose, good at the set piece, massive in defence. No problem with his decision not to pass, cover defence was tracking why did watson not cut an angle? 8/10
06: Wood - pointless penalties, and awful at the breakdown. ok in defence. Not really sure what he does at the lineout. 4/10
07: Robshaw - Runs all day, but suffered form the same lack of impact at the contact as his team mates - both attack and defence. 5/10
08: Vunipola - get him on the bench. Really unfit, very loose. Lots of bad options, no presence at the breakdown - odd carry here and there doesn't mean he's amazing. 4/10
09: Care - very average game, crabbed a bit - but no one comes onto the ball like at Quins. Service got better after the intercept as obviously went inside himself - 5/10
10: Farrell - no where near as bad as people made out, but no where near as good as he should be. 6/10
11: May - some really poor decision making in defence, both on ball and tackling (probably born out of frustration). made up for a lot of it with a lovely search and apss for BB - 6/10
12: Eastmond - clearly frustrated with the quality of ball, was forcing it form the off. never really in the game, but never really out of it. 6/10
13: Barritt - great in defence, deserved a try - englandsbest back yesterday 7/10
14: Watson - too soon. Doesn't cut the angles when needed to - Farrell & Attwood incidents. Poor/Nervous in the air for a 14/15. Just needs bit more time form the bench i think. 5/10
15: Brown - not a great game, but not a bad game. Solid at the back, but clearly frustrated with the game (as shown with his lashin out at le roux). 7/10

I'd go like this for samoa:

01: Marler
02: Webber
03: wilson
04: Lawes
05: Attwood
06: Haskell
07: Robshaw
08: Morgan
09: Youngs
10: Ford
11: Yarde
12: Eastmond
13: BB
14: May (yep i'd swap his wing)
15: Watson
 
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Wouldn't be too bad but I wouldn't want to see 12tress starting over Eastmond right now. Eastmond hasn't really done anything wrong so far and seems to be doing a fair amount right. He as good as set up a try that didn't happen due to Brown's error and has managed to get over the gain line better than 12trees despite being smaller. I can't recall seeing Eastmond fail defensively in the last 2 games.

Goode just no...
I think Eastond will be switched out solely because he played the full 80 the last two weeks, and they won't want to risk him against Samoa, with Australia being a real must win test the week afterwards.

I'd like to think that Eastmond is definitely first choice 12, so they can rest him without having a negative effect on his selection chances.
 
Any reason?

Yarde usually plays 14 and May usually plays 11 for their respective clubs. Can't think of why this would be a good idea...

Because England tend to play him on the left, and because I don't think he's skilful enough to play 14.
 
Yeah, I was always under the impression that it's pretty much down to which foot you kick with, which wing you play on.
 
It's my impression that teams are more likely to play a finisher on the left and a big powerful runner on the right, although I really don't know why - or even if it's more than my imagination. At amateur level I always like the best finisher on the left because he gets better ball going right to left, but you'd hope international class backs would pass equally well off either hand
 
It's easier to pass left than right too. I'd imagine the biggest difference is which foot is your strongest. A left winger can come off a strong left foot to suddenly dart back infield and the opposite for a right winger.
 
I figure that it being easier to pass right to left means that the left winger is more likely to receive the ball on a completed move, whereas the right winger might be likelier to receive the ball on attacks down the blindside and have to work in less space. This would explain putting a faster guy on the left and a bigger guy on the right. But I can't think that this would make all that much difference in practice tbh...
 
What's the difference in skill levels between left and right wing then ?

You're right wing is normally a ball player. He's more likely to act as an Auxillary 15/13. Come off his wing looking for work, be stronger in contact and be less of an out and out pace man.

obviously there are exceptions to the rule but that's how i see it.
 
well then, I've just sat through the whole game, and (Surprise!) I don't agree about Farrell at all - i felt he made a couple of mistakes just before he came off, but i didn't feel Ford came on and "changed our attack", and i didn't feel Farrell was as poor as people made out in the first 55 minutes (more on the attack later).

On the substitution it's not his call, the fourth official calls it, he can't choose to stay on if the refs been told - so they never made the sub.

I'd still play Ford next week, because i think Farrell is unfit - i think his decision making went bad around 45 mins because he's not fit enough to play a full 60-70 min game. In fact i wouldn't play Farrell at all next week, i'd let him rest and bring in Myler on the bench.

Here is what i think on the actual game, and why we lost:

Problem one: We didn't protect the ball well enough in the contact in the first half - in bad weather, with rain and a greasy surface we should have been going in shoulders low and hips turned, instead our forwards were looking for the pass/offload.

Problem two: Our attack is stifled, our backs sat flat and narrow (bad weather accounts for the second), the reason our backs were sitting flat is because oour ball died in the contact area, our ball died in the contact area because our forwards are a carrying isolated and from a standign start - we are actually playing exactly how Australia have been this summer, we're looking for that distributing forward but we don't understand how to do it - we'd be much better off just flying around the corner getting Hartley, Robshaw, Lawes, et al carrying off 9 and inside 10.

And THAT is why our backs are so flat and why we are struggling to move the ball off second/multiple phase ball.

We need to come onto the ball, Marler (not specific) standing still 2-3 metres back is useless. Especally if he's then lumbers two three steps forward only to pass to a one out runner. It is pointless if they are not both hitting the same channel - for example, Marler carries one side of Lambie - Robshaw the other, if Lambie bites in Marler passes to Robshaw on an unders line, if he doesn't he carries and Robshaw become the hammer to Marler's nail. If Robshaw carries then Marler becomes the cleaner.

And that's why we're struggling so badly, and that's why our ruck ball is sh*t, and that's why our backs are pedestrian.

Problem Three: Conditioning. As i said abou Farrell, i thinkt he same rings true for a lot of the squad. Billy V, Marler, Care, Brown - I think we are badly under condition for this level of Rugby. I don't know if this is a mismatch between our club and national set ups but these guys are not fit enough to keep pace with NZ and SA. SA didn't play well, but the one thing they didn't do is come off the pace at any point in the game. We look heavy on the the ball, and that half a yard of oxygen in the second & third 20's is really impacting our contact area in both attack and defence.

Running through the team:
01: Marler - solid set piece, poor in the loose on attack. Think people underestimate his defence and how much he contributes to our lineout. 5/10
02: Hartley - well, Hartley, deserved Yellow, carried well at times - good set piece. 5/10
03: Wilson - as above 6/10
04: Lawes - yep, what you'd expect but a lack of team cohesion impacted on his effectivness. 7/10
05: Attwood - Monster, awesome in the loose, good at the set piece, massive in defence. No problem with his decision not to pass, cover defence was tracking why did watson not cut an angle? 8/10
06: Wood - pointless penalties, and awful at the breakdown. ok in defence. Not really sure what he does at the lineout. 4/10
07: Robshaw - Runs all day, but suffered form the same lack of impact at the contact as his team mates - both attack and defence. 5/10
08: Vunipola - get him on the bench. Really unfit, very loose. Lots of bad options, no presence at the breakdown - odd carry here and there doesn't mean he's amazing. 4/10
09: Care - very average game, crabbed a bit - but no one comes onto the ball like at Quins. Service got better after the intercept as obviously went inside himself - 5/10
10: Farrell - no where near as bad as people made out, but no where near as good as he should be. 6/10
11: May - some really poor decision making in defence, both on ball and tackling (probably born out of frustration). made up for a lot of it with a lovely search and apss for BB - 6/10
12: Eastmond - clearly frustrated with the quality of ball, was forcing it form the off. never really in the game, but never really out of it. 6/10
13: Barritt - great in defence, deserved a try - englandsbest back yesterday 7/10
14: Watson - too soon. Doesn't cut the angles when needed to - Farrell & Attwood incidents. Poor/Nervous in the air for a 14/15. Just needs bit more time form the bench i think. 5/10
15: Brown - not a great game, but not a bad game. Solid at the back, but clearly frustrated with the game (as shown with his lashin out at le roux). 7/10

I'd go like this for samoa:

01: Marler
02: Webber
03: wilson
04: Lawes
05: Attwood
06: Haskell
07: Robshaw
08: Morgan
09: Youngs
10: Ford
11: Yarde
12: Eastmond
13: BB
14: May (yep i'd swap his wing)
15: Watson

i think england need to have a good look at themseves and decide priorities.
if its the world cup then action needs to be taken now !!!!
in my opinion farrell is just not good enough.....alternatives are limited to ford and myler.......give them a go to find out.
hartley is a liability we cannot afford, i think he may actually be stupid. webber was fine.
at one point lawes thought he was wearing a green jersey !!!!twice joined the ruck through the gate but unfortunately on the sa side.........sensless.
the starting props are too pedestrian.........give youth a chance.
we need a real no7 and its not robshaw. kvesic ?
we need a no 6.....maybe robshaw as he is captain. poss haskell as no 6 and captain !!!!!!
lancaster needs to decide between morgan and vunipola.......with a different type of number 8 on the bench. burgess ????
sorry to say but eastmond is not big enough for a modern centre.
barritt is workmanlike and worth a place but who with ? tuilangi if fit ...joseph for his connection with ford............twelvetrees if desperate............burgess ? got to be worth a throw of the dice. give him 20 minutes in the 6nations, or even against samoa and see what he can do. time is short to prevaricate..
we are locked in at scrum half.........not many alternatives............care and youngs need to sort it out for themselves.
watson on the wing was a shambles...........rokodguni if fit.......yarde ? burgess ???????
i know i keep going on about burgess. i have no idea if he up to it............he comes with great references and in sport ...cometh the hour, cometh the man. fairy tales just may come true.
the alternative in my opinion is that england will go down to a glorious defeat as we normally do..
hope i havent bored anyone.
 
Cannot agree enough that the forwards are underperforming ball in hall - too deep, too static, too structured. I still feel like there's some pretty significant problems going on in the backline and they're paid to play off any platform, watching South Africa whip up Reinach's try out of nothing off of crap and I'm wishing we could do that, but the pack needs to man up.

And I feel the reason its not is part selection, part coaching.
 
i think england need to have a good look at themseves and decide priorities.
if its the world cup then action needs to be taken now !!!!
in my opinion farrell is just not good enough.....alternatives are limited to ford and myler.......give them a go to find out.
hartley is a liability we cannot afford, i think he may actually be stupid. webber was fine.
at one point lawes thought he was wearing a green jersey !!!!twice joined the ruck through the gate but unfortunately on the sa side.........sensless.
the starting props are too pedestrian.........give youth a chance.
we need a real no7 and its not robshaw. kvesic ?
we need a no 6.....maybe robshaw as he is captain. poss haskell as no 6 and captain !!!!!!
lancaster needs to decide between morgan and vunipola.......with a different type of number 8 on the bench. burgess ????
sorry to say but eastmond is not big enough for a modern centre.
barritt is workmanlike and worth a place but who with ? tuilangi if fit ...joseph for his connection with ford............twelvetrees if desperate............burgess ? got to be worth a throw of the dice. give him 20 minutes in the 6nations, or even against samoa and see what he can do. time is short to prevaricate..
we are locked in at scrum half.........not many alternatives............care and youngs need to sort it out for themselves.
watson on the wing was a shambles...........rokodguni if fit.......yarde ? burgess ???????
i know i keep going on about burgess. i have no idea if he up to it............he comes with great references and in sport ...cometh the hour, cometh the man. fairy tales just may come true.
the alternative in my opinion is that england will go down to a glorious defeat as we normally do..
hope i havent bored anyone.


Paragraphs dude, paragraphs.

Cannot agree enough that the forwards are underperforming ball in hall - too deep, too static, too structured. I still feel like there's some pretty significant problems going on in the backline and they're paid to play off any platform, watching South Africa whip up Reinach's try out of nothing off of crap and I'm wishing we could do that, but the pack needs to man up.

And I feel the reason its not is part selection, part coaching.

Don't get me wrong the backline is far from perfect but I don't think the issues are where people claim them to be (i.e. Farrell) and lets be frank an average backline can look amazing off good quality go forward ball, and Englands pack are not providing that.

I agree, I think it's part selection and part coaching - i don't understand why we are trying to play the ball playing 1st receiver. We just need to be getting over the gain line, and this England pack is far better suited to coming round the corner in numbers rather than playing the one out pass style.

I really think we should go back to basics and just worry about the gain line and clearing in numbers - if we flood the break down on our ball we'll get quicker cleaner ball, if we carry in numbers we'll cross the gain line.

At the moment we're passing to the 1st Receiver, who just runs forward and takes contact or passes to the second forward way to deep who then runs into contact. Watch New Zealand and Ireland who both play the one out runner off a forward and they both work in much tighter clusters right on the tackle line.

England don't.
 
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goode !!!!!!! i dont want to be unkind but i think hes scared.
watch him..........he runs into contact and does a little girlie hop skip and jump........it looks like he is going to sidestep but what he actually does is stop.
 
On the substitution it's not his call, the fourth official calls it, he can't choose to stay on if the refs been told - so they never made the sub.

Exactly...therein lies the problem!


14: Watson - too soon. Doesn't cut the angles when needed to - Farrell & Attwood incidents.

Wait... You're blaming the first penalty we gave away on Watson? To what lengths will you go to in order to defend Farrell! That pass should never have been given, in fact the kick should have been made after Farrell beat the first two defenders. Watson was clearly not expecting that pass and I don't see what line he could have run when he was tracked like that - Farrells fault all day long.

Generally agree with your ratings but Lawes gave away 4 penalties so can't possibly be above a 4 or 5.
 
Exactly...therein lies the problem!

Not really, i think what we saw happenwas they were going to move Faz to 12, bring Eastmond off, we saw the Medical guy talking to Farrell and he was indicating he was in a lot of pain - i think they held off whilst they decided if they should either move May and Barritt in one and bring Faz and Eastmond off, or leave Eastmond on and just walk Faz.


Wait... You're blaming the first penalty we gave away on Watson? To what lengths will you go to in order to defend Farrell! That pass should never have been given, in fact the kick should have been made after Farrell beat the first two defenders. Watson was clearly not expecting that pass and I don't see what line he could have run when he was tracked like that - Farrells fault all day long.

It's not defending Farrell, it's pointing out Watson should have worked harder off the ball and got himself in a better position or signaled to Farrell to hoof it down field, he didn't. He instead offered himself on the switch.

If he'd just trod water and hugged the touchline, or worked harder and offered a switch earlier neither of them would have been in that position - Farrell was trying to pull him in earlier but he never came.

So yeah you can blame it all on Farrell if you really want to. It was "6 of one one half dozen of the other", they were both at fault. I agree Faz should have hoofed it, but he'd beaten the first defenders and seen his kicking distance shut down - so kept going. Watson should have got himself in a better position and helped out more.

But yeah, it's all me defending Fazlet.

Generally agree with your ratings but Lawes gave away 4 penalties so can't possibly be above a 4 or 5.

Penalties don't mean he didn't play well.
 
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You think Farrell needed to be told by a one-cap winger that he should hoof it? Jusus ****ing christ.

Farrell is your blindspot, mate.
 
I really want to see Ewers @ 6 sometime.

A back row of Ewers, Haskell and Morgan for me has the same breakdown ability as the current back row but that added power in the running play.

Will never happen though but would be really good to see imo.
 
You think Farrell needed to be told by a one-cap winger that he should hoof it? Jusus ****ing christ.

Farrell is your blindspot, mate.

oh ***** off. Farrell could have kicked it, yes, but his kicking options were slim.

One cap winger or not, counter attack is about communication, Watson did nothing to help the situation and I could see that from the off he literally ran parallel to Farrell and contributed nothing at that stage - he again did the same thing off Attwood and on the inside ball ran an utterly sh*t line.

I get people don't like Farrell, but reading though the SA thread people would blame world famine on him if they could. The boy didn't' play anywhere near as bad, and ford didn't' play anywhere nearly as well as people are making out.

Regardless i said they both made mistakes there.
 
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