[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (3rd Test)

[Big Ewis]

I dunno, for me it's the face he makes as he dives. It was literally unbearable - had to turn away from tv/pc screen before - and I've learned to just accept it now. But it's still so very wrong...

 

[TheSaffycen]

Both of you have asked about "point 2"?
Are you asking my opinion of Saffycen's point 2?... if so then yes, I agree.

My bad how i read it you where writing out your points and forgot to put in a 2nd one

England attack slightly more these days. But it's mostly through midfield. Nearly all of our attacks come through 13 and 15. The wingers are still getting very few opportunities.

It has been discussed alot around here and it is a problem if you're a winger. But we are way more attacking nowadays, players are told to put the ball through the hands more instead of kicking territory, it's the main reason Farrell has improved.

So he can run good support lines? What use is that to England when the wingers are fixed to their wings? Perhaps if he played fullback, that skill might be put to good use.

7:00 minutes in Ashton is next too Yarde who throws the ball long wide. Ashton is a great reader of the game and then cuts across the 22 seeing the danger and is then on the inside for Brown. It looks easy but alot of players dont read the game like him and recognise the danger, if Ashton was on the pitch when Tuilagi made his big break we would have been 7 points up.

 

[Darwin]

A few thoughts on the ABs side (if that is allowed):
- Great to see the Kaino/McCaw/Read trio re-united. People shouldn't expect miracles from Read though as he had played basically no rugby for 2 months. I like what Messam could potentially offer from the bench too..
- Barrett is unlucky not to start this week - he probably would have if Smith wasn't injured. Cruden is slowely building but is still a long way off his top form.
- Jane gets a reprieve, but unless he plays very well this week his international career may well be over. He has been very quiet for the Canes this season, and had an absolute shocker last weekend. When Piutau returns for the Rugby Championship he looks like the one most likely to drop out off the squad (I don't rate Dagg either, but the selectors love him...).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I dunno, for me it's the face he makes as he dives. It was literally unbearable - had to turn away from tv/pc screen before - and I've learned to just accept it now. But it's still so very wrong...

 

[goodNumber10]

7:00 minutes in Ashton is next too Yarde who throws the ball long wide. Ashton is a great reader of the game and then cuts across the 22 seeing the danger and is then on the inside for Brown. It looks easy but alot of players dont read the game like him and recognise the danger, if Ashton was on the pitch when Tuilagi made his big break we would have been 7 points up.

BOOM!!! http://thescore.thejournal.ie/chris-ashton-england-new-zealand-analysis-1520341-Jun2014

That's Murray Kinsella writing that piece, the man knows rugby.

 

[TheSaffycen]

A few thoughts on the ABs side (if that is allowed):
- Great to see the Kaino/McCaw/Read trio re-united. People shouldn't expect miracles from Read though as he had played basically no rugby for 2 months. I like what Messam could potentially offer from the bench too..
- Barrett is unlucky not to start this week - he probably would have if Smith wasn't injured. Cruden is slowely building but is still a long way off his top form.
- Jane gets a reprieve, but unless he plays very well this week his international career may well be over. He has been very quiet for the Canes this season, and had an absolute shocker last weekend. When Piutau returns for the Rugby Championship he looks like the one most likely to drop out off the squad (I don't rate Dagg either, but the selectors love him...).

No no it isnt....
But seriously i think the reason Cruden is starting is probably because New Zealand are going to be kicking alot more this game due to England having zero ability in fielding high kicks. I would've started Barrett because his ability to bring the ball to the line and have Nonu and Fekitoa running off him would be deadly.

EDIT

BOOM!!! http://thescore.thejournal.ie/chris-...520341-Jun2014

Turns out i'm a rugby genius Even though i've been told i'm a ****ing bellend

 

[ratsapprentice]

What Kinsella completely misses in his analysis there - is that Twelvetrees is actually getting in position to play from the next phase instead of honeypotting.
He's exactly where an inside centre should be.

 

[goodNumber10]

A few thoughts on the ABs side (if that is allowed):
- Great to see the Kaino/McCaw/Read trio re-united. People shouldn't expect miracles from Read though as he had played basically no rugby for 2 months. I like what Messam could potentially offer from the bench too..
- Barrett is unlucky not to start this week - he probably would have if Smith wasn't injured. Cruden is slowely building but is still a long way off his top form.
- Jane gets a reprieve, but unless he plays very well this week his international career may well be over. He has been very quiet for the Canes this season, and had an absolute shocker last weekend. When Piutau returns for the Rugby Championship he looks like the one most likely to drop out off the squad (I don't rate Dagg either, but the selectors love him...).

Whilst its great to see that backrow up against the English backrow I can't believe they are risking Read in a dead rubber... absolutely nothing to gain from it.

What Kinsella completely misses in his analysis there - is that Twelvetrees is actually getting in position to play from the next phase instead of honeypotting.
He's exactly where an inside centre should be.

You are absolutely right, why on earth would an inside center support a move that's in motion?

I mean it's not like the New Zealand, Australian or South African inside backs run support lines when it's on.

The point Kinsella is illustrating is Ashtons vision and understanding of the game, he is in the same place as twelvetrees - two players in identical situations yet one recognises the chance and one rigidly trots off to get in position because he doesn't understand the scoring opportunity is on.

What Ashton does there is no different to what Ben Smith did in the first New Zealand try, what tweletrees does is robotically conform to a process rather than playing heads up and reacting.

 

[Big Ewis]

Olyy, you're such a bish...
+1.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If both guys had run to support that break and the ball had been turned over....?

...The ABs jog it in from their own 22.

I don't think we'll agree on this, so let's leave it there.

 

[Darwin]

What Kinsella completely misses in his analysis there - is that Twelvetrees is actually getting in position to play from the next phase instead of honeypotting.
He's exactly where an inside centre should be.

He also fails to point out that what Ashton does here probably illegal as he is in front of the ball and continues to run towards the opponents try-line (which makes him offside...)

 

[goodNumber10]

He also fails to point out that what Ashton does here probably illegal as he is in front of the ball and continues to run towards the opponents tryline.....

Was Ben Smith offside when he passed and supported because he was in front of Savea and Cruden when he passed the ball?

It's broken play, i'm pretty sure he can't be offside, regardless he is behind the ball carrier when the ball is passed to him.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

He also fails to point out that what Ashton does here probably illegal as he is in front of the ball and continues to run towards the opponents try-line (which makes him offside...)

GN10 has got you on this one Darwin (though his analogy is curious at best)!

 

[Darwin]

Was Ben Smith offside when he passed and supported because he was in front of Savea and Cruden when he passed the ball?

It's broken play, i'm pretty sure he can't be offside, regardless he is behind the ball carrier when the ball is passed to him.

For a few seconds, yes Smith was offside. It just wasn't near as obvious as the Ashton case. Aaron Smith was more clearly offside and moving forward too....

You can be offside in broken play. See below:

In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.
Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable to be penalised if they take part in the game.
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.


11.1 Offside in general play
(a)

A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:

• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).

A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal.

Ashton was in a offside position (he was in front of a team mate carrying the ball), and he moved forward/towards the ball therefore the referee would have been well within his rights to penalize him. It is irrelevant that he was eventually onside when he received the ball. These sort of offenses seldom get penalized (and it would be very difficult to enforce as it happens all the time), but it is technically illegal play.

GN10 has got you on this one Darwin (though his analogy is curious at best)!

I'm not quite sure how he has got me, as I think you will find the law is actually on my side

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Michael Parling out with a hamstring injury, Michael Berry starts with Michael Attwood on the bench.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'm not quite sure how he has got me, as I think you will find the law is actually on my side

Heh, egg on my face then!

 

[Darwin]

Michael Parling out with a hamstring injury, Michael Berry starts with Michael Attwood on the bench.

I've been quite impressed with Michael (Parling) this tour, though I do believe Michael (Berry) adds a bit more grunt up front.....

 

[j'nuh]

Whilst its great to see that backrow up against the English backrow I can't believe they are risking Read in a dead rubber... absolutely nothing to gain from it.



You are absolutely right, why on earth would an inside center support a move that's in motion?

I mean it's not like the New Zealand, Australian or South African inside backs run support lines when it's on.

The point Kinsella is illustrating is Ashtons vision and understanding of the game, he is in the same place as twelvetrees - two players in identical situations yet one recognises the chance and one rigidly trots off to get in position because he doesn't understand the scoring opportunity is on.

What Ashton does there is no different to what Ben Smith did in the first New Zealand try, what tweletrees does is robotically conform to a process rather than playing heads up and reacting.

Why stop at two players? I propose that we send all 14 players off to run a support line off of one carrier... who cares about anything else?

Just think about it. It's great that Ashton spotted it. But it's his job to do that kind of thing. His whole reputation is staked upon the simple premise that he's a league convert, so he can do the pretty support lines. It's his only niche in the game. If he didn't have that, he would be a below average Premiership player. It doesn't mean every player should have their reputations staked upon this trait. It would also be a totally bad thing if everyone tried to run support lines all the time. You need players in position for inter-phase play. Had Ashton and Twelvetrees both gone for it, and they were tackled, we'd have been short in midfield. As a wing, it's okay for Ashton to gravitate towards the action (which was on his wing anyway), but Twelvetrees has a greater responsibility to what happens in the next phase.

 

[Maverick1987]

Let's not slate Ashton too much he has played really well recently and maybe deserves another chance . I'm not going to rip his head off until he gets run over by Savea . I'm also not going to be pulling my penis like some sarries fans are because he's back in . If he scores a hat trick fair play but if still rather Rokoduguni or Nowell in a heartbeat

 

[ratsapprentice]

Parling has pulled his hamstring - Launchbury replaces him, with Attwood coming onto the bench.