[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (2nd Test)

[donmcdazzle]

There are a couple of reasons we aren't as dominant at this level as previously. Goodnumber10 has identified one (the fact other side have gotten better), but a major reason from a NZ perspective is that we not longer have Dave Rennie coaching (the guy who coached the Chiefs to the last Super Rugby ***les for those who are unfamiliar with the name). NZ sides often struggle size wise at these tournaments. At the lower levels in NZ there is far more of a focus on developing basic skills / rugby nous than bulking up (that comes later) hence we often end up getting destroyed by the bigger forward packs in this tournament. Even when we were dominating the early tournaments our forward packs were often getting hammered by the likes of England and South Africa - the difference was that Rennie had developed a fast-paced style of play that maximised our strengths and minimized our weaknesses. We had highly mobile packs and basically ran other sides off the park. Since Rennie left we have looked a bit lost at this level to be honest. We did win (just) in 2011 (with Anscombe at coach), but we probably our most talented side ever.....

In terms of player production we are still producing just as talented players at U20 level in my opinion. Personally I don't think NZ's decline in fortunes at U20 level will directly lead to a decline in fortunes at the top level....

That is a really good point actually. I don't mean to pick on England, as this probably applies to a few countries but I'll give you a personal example. A couple of years ago I was over in the UK playing footy for a semi pro team. We had a mercenary type set up with a whole lot of foreigners and good English players (ex age grade England players, ex academy players etc, Provincial B players from NZ and some Super rugby B squad guys from Aus/SA). We won like 50 games straight and smashed most teams. Now the poms were physically impressive, always big guys and did the damage for us. But the basic skills in comparison were pretty poor. Our tight 5 couldn't be trusted to catch and pass in open play. Our kiwi number 8 ended up in the centres as he was more skillful than the English guy we had.

We used to hold coaching clinics in the school holidays for kids aged about 12 or so and their comparative skill level to kids back here was miles lower, because most of them had only just started to play the game. They definitely don't have the ball in their hands at age about 4 like we do. I think that's the key to our depth to be honest, the general skill level starts so early and is present in all grades really.

One of my mates plays in the top14 in France and he reckons the same thing, young French guys have comparatively poor skills. He reckons if you were a good young kiwi you should go over there as it is miles easier to make the grade.

 

[Darwin]

Good news for the AB's (perhaps) - Israel Dagg missed this mornings training season in Dunedin (with his thigh injury). Hopefully this means he will be rested this weekend, though it is probably equally likely that he will play even though he is unprepared and not fully fit.....

Interesting to hear Pat Osbourne took part in the training session. Obviously not much should be read into this (with Dagg out they obviously needed more outside backs for the drills they were performing), but it does suggest he may be someone they may look at in future....

 

[Jaguares]

Good news for the AB's (perhaps) - Israel Dagg missed this mornings training season in Dunedin (with his thigh injury). Hopefully this means he will be rested this weekend, though it is probably equally likely that he will play even though he is unprepared and not fully fit.....

Interesting to hear Pat Osbourne took part in the training session. Obviously not much should be read into this (with Dagg out they obviously needed more outside backs for the drills they were performing), but it does suggest he may be someone they may look at in future....

So... Ben Smith at fullback and Cory Jane at right wing. Who will be the left wing?

 

[nzlizard]

So... Ben Smith at fullback and Cory Jane at right wing. Who will be the left wing?

Depends on Savea, if he not fit who knows, may Fekitoa.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

fekitoa was who i was thinking but i dont remember him playing the best in the one game he's played on the wing for the highlanders.

surely it is better to call up a left winger rather than keep playing guys out of position...this shoe horning the best players into the 15 is going to back fire

Even if dagg was fit, this is my logic, tell me if i'm wrong.

15. dagg 14. Smith 11. Jane = two guys out of position or at least not in their best position

15. Smith 14. Jane 11 Dagg = one guy out of position

am i completely insane?

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't really see the connection between slowing down opposition ball in play (which all sides aim to do, whether legally or illegally) and wasting time. There is probably no point in debating this further (as it is far less interesting than the actual match), I just hope Peyper doesn't allow England to waste so much time again this weekend, as I wouldn't mind actually watching the sides play some rugby

I guess it depends on your point of view.

I'd rather have someone slowing the dead ball down then playing properly one it was in than making the game scrappy and frustrating to watch with ball killing.

Once the ball was in play NZ were in control of their own destinies. They could have kept possession and the gave which they chose to play those % at times because dead ball suited them.

For me it's about quality of ball in play not how long.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I love how people on here think England played at their best when we didn't even score a try? Is that playing well?

We were the top try scorers in the 6 nations so us not scoring a try is not playing very well.

It's the first time ever that England have had that 10 12 13 combo too. That will only get better where as noun and smith have played together hundreds of times

 

[Darwin]

I guess it depends on your point of view.

I'd rather have someone slowing the dead ball down then playing properly one it was in than making the game scrappy and frustrating to watch with ball killing.

Once the ball was in play NZ were in control of their own destinies. They could have kept possession and the gave which they chose to play those % at times because dead ball suited them.

For me it's about quality of ball in play not how long.

No-one (as far as I know) likes watching games where both sides continually kill the ball turning it into a scrappy game. However it is not a matter of deciding whether you would prefer quality of ball in play or have the ball is in play for a longer time. There is no reason why you can't have both!

 

[goodNumber10]

No-one (as far as I know) likes watching games where both sides continually kill the ball turning it into a scrappy game. However it is not a matter of deciding whether you would prefer quality of ball in play or have the ball is in play for a longer time. There is no reason why you can't have both!

Completely agree. My point is about positive mindset.

 

[RoosTah]

I love how people on here think England played at their best when we didn't even score a try? Is that playing well?

We were the top try scorers in the 6 nations so us not scoring a try is not playing very well.

It's the first time ever that England have had that 10 12 13 combo too. That will only get better where as noun and smith have played together hundreds of times

If Nonu keeps playing the way he did on Saturday, I think it'll be a safe bet that SBW will come in next year.

 

[Maverick1987]

If Nonu keeps playing the way he did on Saturday, I think it'll be a safe bet that SBW will come in next year.

Or Fekitoa . That boy is a serious talent and as soon as he gets his feet under the table he will be brilliant no doubt . He's not as big as I thought he was though

 

[RoosTah]

Or Fekitoa . That boy is a serious talent and as soon as he gets his feet under the table he will be brilliant no doubt . He's not as big as I thought he was though

I'm putting my money on SBW. The guy almost single handedly won the NRL Premiership for the Roosters last year and he's just so bloody hard to contain with his massive shoulders and arms. Dude is a freak... Lost count of the amount of games he's won for us (Roosters)

 

[Maverick1987]

I'm putting my money on SBW. The guy almost single handedly won the NRL Premiership for the Roosters last year and he's just so bloody hard to contain with his massive shoulders and arms. Dude is a freak... Lost count of the amount of games he's won for us (Roosters)

I'm not huge on NRL but does Sam Burgess play for you too ?

BTW when you talk about his shoulders and arms like that it sound a like a bit of a man crush

 

[Guilty]

With Nonu playing the way he is, I'm expecting SBW to walk into the AB's starting XV next year. I personally don't like the guy - but he is a freak of nature and at worst will be on the bench for the AB's.

On topic though.. I think way too much has been made of the AB's poor performance on the weekend. They are always slow starters but as they say, good teams find a way to win ugly. With the way the British media has been carrying on you would have thought the English had at least won the game! I would love nothing more than to herald in a new era of non-AB dominance but let's at least wait until the end of Rugby Championship before we go down that path - which would actually still be too soon if AUS or SA were to win.

What I will say though is that the AB's may have peaked too soon last year. The WC is still more than a year away and I feel like SA, AUS and England might just be ramping at the right time. Time will tell...

Expecting the AB's to win by 15+ on Saturday.

 

[Tmartin995]

After the way wood has played in big big games for Northampton in the past few weeks you can't leave him out . Shame for Haskell though

That did cross my mind. I don't know, it's really tough to choose between them. Haskell was a menace last week, but like you said Wood has played immensely well for Saints at the end of the season. Plus I guess he's excellent at the line out, which may just give him the edge over Haskell.

 

[goodNumber10]

it does let you bring in Lawes - who is a monster in defence.

 

[RoosTah]

I'm not huge on NRL but does Sam Burgess play for you too ?

BTW when you talk about his shoulders and arms like that it sound a like a bit of a man crush

Nah, Burgess plays for our cross-town rivals South Sydney.

But yes, I think started to develop something of a man crush on SBW ever since last year when he signed with us... I noticed it creeping up on me one day when my girlfriend was commenting on how powerful Israel Folau looks, and found myself saying "he's solid, but his shoulders and arms ain't got nothing on SBW". By the time he burst throw Manly's defence in the GF to set-up what was effectively the match turning try, I think it had evolved into a category 4 case of man-love.

...

What were we talking about?

Oh yeah, Nonu sucks right now .

 

[squirrel]

SBW just lacks that bit of speed, maybe the refs might notice his gridiron passes as well next year

 

[goodNumber10]

this makes me think Tuilagi will play wing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27763157

Too much detail and too much discussion to think it wont happen.

 

[Maverick1987]

this makes me think Tuilagi will play wing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27763157

Too much detail and too much discussion to think it wont happen.

That's not bringing up a page mate