[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (2nd Test)

[Peat]

Maybe the occasion got to him. I know he's ridiculously young (I remember him playing in the jnr game and thinking 'check that guys birth certificate for wet ink!').

Dave Wilson is 29. You're confusing him, at a guess, with Scott Wilson, who's only 19 or so...

 

[RoosTah]

seems to me that England have some serious depth in their squad these days, group stage exit for Australia next year

They look pretty good, but I think anyone who underestimates McKenzie is setting themselves up for a fall. Australia are rank underdogs for next year already in spite of outclassing England last year in a match they should have won, and winning their other 4 matches - including a blitz of 6 Nations champs Ireland and Wales, who they'll also be facing in their pool next year.

With Speight to come into the side and Kurindrani showing a lot of power, our backline is going to be pretty bloody handy, with a potential of: Genia-Cooper/White-Foley, Speight, Toomua, Kurindrani (who'll be bloody handy against Tuilagi in the pools) and AAC/Honeybadger, and Folau.

Add to that the likes of Moore and Pocock to come back into the forwards, plus a year of test experience under the belt of the massive Will Skelton, and suddenly we have a pretty handy looking side. Heck, McKenzie may also bring Douglas into the set-up from what I hear, so it's gonna be a solid outfit.

 

[RoosTah]

I think they will be looking for the win to don't subscribe to this being absolutely essential, the World Cup is at home, this England Squad have already beaten them at home - they will know they can raise their game to a level they can beat them with - and lets face facts their is really only one way for NZ to go they are top of the world right now someone will take that place at somepoint, the top 4 will all be confident of taking each other out come next year.

England have beaten NZ at home in 2012, but that is their only win in their last 12 encounters, most of which were in England. I'd argue you need a little more consistency to go into the RWC with more confidence.

Awful sh*t stirring garbage article, and pointing the finger in completly the wrong direction. NEw Zealand play everything at pace always have, but you don't have to worry about Englands fitness.

Smith struggles to contain Tuilagi for sure. There was lot's of cynical play when england made line breaks - prime example is Smith (9) deliberatley running through the passing line early on etc... New Zealand were slowing the game down tons on opposition ball, because they didn't want Tuilaigi, Brown et al coming onto the ball at pace.

There was cynical play from both sides in slowing the game down after breaks, but I think the kiwis have a point about all those huddles England kept having before line-outs...

Tuilagi was definitely way too much for the Kiwis though, so they're going to be in trouble next week with your bolstered pack if they don't adapt. Will be a fascinating test either way and I can't wait, but whilst the RWC is a year away and at home for England, I do think success in this series is pretty important for them as a group...

Also, I do get the feeling we're all forgetting about The Springboks a bit. They were pretty devastating last year, and if they keep building the way they have been, they're going to be very hard to stop at the RWC.

 

[Darwin]

Awful sh*t stirring article, and pointing the finger in completly the wrong direction.

**** stirring? Perhaps. But there were some valid points. England slowed the pace of the match down to a crawl in the 2nd half. It was painful to watch. Every stoppage in play an English player went down with an 'injury', and the conferences England had before each lineout were farcical. Why the ref allowed England to do this is beyond me. Hopefully the ref doesn't allow these conferences this week....

I'm sure the AB's will look to speed up the match as much as possible this week. Matches in Dunedin are usually fast-paced high scoring affairs, so I would expect to see a few more tries this week.

 

[nzlizard]

They look pretty good, but I think anyone who underestimates McKenzie is setting themselves up for a fall. Australia are rank underdogs for next year already in spite of outclassing England last year in a match they should have won, and winning their other 4 matches - including a blitz of 6 Nations champs Ireland and Wales, who they'll also be facing in their pool next year.

With Speight to come into the side and Kurindrani showing a lot of power, our backline is going to be pretty bloody handy, with a potential of: Genia-Cooper/White-Foley, Speight, Toomua, Kurindrani (who'll be bloody handy against Tuilagi in the pools) and AAC/Honeybadger, and Folau.

Add to that the likes of Moore and Pocock to come back into the forwards, plus a year of test experience under the belt of the massive Will Skelton, and suddenly we have a pretty handy looking side. Heck, McKenzie may also bring Douglas into the set-up from what I hear, so it's gonna be a solid outfit.

Yup agree, Aus,Eng and SA look like their going to peak at good times with the rugby WC next year, we had 2 awesome years in 12 & 13 and need to work really hard to maintain that, we set a pretty good benchmark and would hate to see us peak a bit to early, esp if they are planning on keeping some of the older boys around.

 

[goodNumber10]

I don't think england will worry about the game going fast.

I love how everyone proclaims the only way to play the game is the all blacks way - you play in whatever way knocks the opposition out of their stride. England have played the game with a lot of pace previously - but this was a weakened side with a lot of front line people missing, they absolutely did not want NZ gaining cohesion. Regardless it was no where near as bad as the NZ Herald makes out, and i don't recall any of you lot grizzling about us slowing the game down it two days ago but now it ruined your enjoyment of the game.

 

[RoosTah]

The All Blacks are the standard - no other team has been so dominant for such a long stretch of time in the professional era - so I suppose it's only natural people will say their style of play is they winning way.

But you're essentially right; teams need not to emulate the All Blacks, but exploit their weaknesses however they can. England look in a good position to do that in this series, but next week will be a very different test no matter what happens.

Very interested to see how Wales will go against a Springbok team that looked quite powerful against a fairly strong 'World XV' last week. France are always a hard read, but I'm expecting the Wallabies will wipe them 3-0 after Brisbane.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

**** stirring? Perhaps. But there were some valid points. England slowed the pace of the match down to a crawl in the 2nd half. It was painful to watch. Every stoppage in play an English player went down with an 'injury', and the conferences England had before each lineout were farcical. Why the ref allowed England to do this is beyond me. Hopefully the ref doesn't allow these conferences this week....

I'm sure the AB's will look to speed up the match as much as possible this week. Matches in Dunedin are usually fast-paced high scoring affairs, so I would expect to see a few more tries this week.

I think that's because NZ fans watching were frustrated that the ABs were not playing better and putting a good 30-40 points past this 2nd string England team that Brodie couldn't name one player played for.

 

[McTallshort]

**** stirring? Perhaps. But there were some valid points. England slowed the pace of the match down to a crawl in the 2nd half. It was painful to watch. Every stoppage in play an English player went down with an 'injury', and the conferences England had before each lineout were farcical. Why the ref allowed England to do this is beyond me. Hopefully the ref doesn't allow these conferences this week....

I'm sure the AB's will look to speed up the match as much as possible this week. Matches in Dunedin are usually fast-paced high scoring affairs, so I would expect to see a few more tries this week.

It was graceless and typical Gregor, a man who critized 2nd and 3rd tier teams in the WC for not scoring enough tries to keep the NZ public happy. It also reminds me of a few years ago (around 2002-2003) when the Kiwi and Aussie press kept calling England boring. That was seen for what it was a cinical ploy because they knew England had a good team perhaps this article is a throw back of those days....

 

[Bada-Bing!]

They look pretty good, but I think anyone who underestimates McKenzie is setting themselves up for a fall. Australia are rank underdogs for next year already in spite of outclassing England last year in a match they should have won, and winning their other 4 matches - including a blitz of 6 Nations champs Ireland and Wales, who they'll also be facing in their pool next year.

With Speight to come into the side and Kurindrani showing a lot of power, our backline is going to be pretty bloody handy, with a potential of: Genia-Cooper/White-Foley, Speight, Toomua, Kurindrani (who'll be bloody handy against Tuilagi in the pools) and AAC/Honeybadger, and Folau.

Add to that the likes of Moore and Pocock to come back into the forwards, plus a year of test experience under the belt of the massive Will Skelton, and suddenly we have a pretty handy looking side. Heck, McKenzie may also bring Douglas into the set-up from what I hear, so it's gonna be a solid outfit.

I don't think anyone is underestimating the Wallabies here, they just don't rate the Wallabies's props, which it is interesting you don't mention. I think England and Australia will fight it out for the top 2 spots in Pool A.

How can Mckenzie pick Douglas next year for RWC if he's signed for Leinster for 2014-2015? Hence why neither Mowen or Douglas have been picked for the France series. Neither will be playing in Australia in World Cup year; that is their choice. JOC maybe a different matter.

 

[RoosTah]

I don't think anyone is underestimating the Wallabies here, they just don't rate the Wallabies's props, which it is interesting you don't mention. I think England and Australia will fight it out for the top 2 spots in Pool A.

How can Mckenzie pick Douglas next year for RWC if he's signed for Leinster for 2014-2015? Hence why neither Mowen or Douglas have been picked for the France series. Neither will be playing in Australia in World Cup year; that is their choice. JOC maybe a different matter.

McKenzie has made noises since coming in that he may consider picking foreign based players for the World Cup depending on how things pan out. Douglas is our form lock this year, so I reckon he'd have to be in contention if he keeps playing the way he has if McKenzie takes that approach.

To be honest I never know how to rate props, because I just don't get the position as a rule. As a former back I just don't feel qualified to comment on their dark arts.

On the RWC, whoever comes in second is in for a bloody torrid time... with them likely having to knock off both the Springboks and the All Blacks to make the final by the looks. Should either Australia or England find themselves in that position, it'll be a heck of a tough road to the final.

 

[Darwin]

I don't think england will worry about the game going fast.

I love how everyone proclaims the only way to play the game is the all blacks way - you play in whatever way knocks the opposition out of their stride. England have played the game with a lot of pace previously - but this was a weakened side with a lot of front line people missing, they absolutely did not want NZ gaining cohesion. Regardless it was no where near as bad as the NZ Herald makes out, and i don't recall any of you lot grizzling about us slowing the game down it two days ago but now it ruined your enjoyment of the game.

I have no idea whether England would struggle in a faster paced game, but it was blatantly obvious that they were deliberately slowing the game down. There was clearly a reason for this. Personally I don't think England (or any other side) should be forced to play the game at a fast pace, but slowing the game down to a ridiculously slow pace is unacceptable in my opinion. People watch rugby to see teams playing rugby. The don't watch it to see players in huddles discussing tactics or trainers talking with players.......

I think that's because NZ fans watching were frustrated that the ABs were not playing better and putting a good 30-40 points past this 2nd string England team that Brodie couldn't name one player played for.

I'm sure many NZ fans were frustrated about this, but again that is not the point. I seemed to spend more time in the 2nd half watching players / trainers huddling round talking than actually watching them play rugby. If this is what people want to watch fair enough, but it doesn't really do it for me....

It was graceless and typical Gregor, a man who critized 2nd and 3rd tier teams in the WC for not scoring enough tries to keep the NZ public happy. It also reminds me of a few years ago (around 2002-2003) when the Kiwi and Aussie press kept calling England boring. That was seen for what it was a cinical ploy because they knew England had a good team perhaps this article is a throw back of those days....

I'm certainly not agreeing with everything Gregor Paul says. He did make a valid point for a change (England deliberately slowed down the match), but most of the article was just trolling rubbish as usual from him.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Obviously New Zealand want a fast and loose game because they are the best at it. Like last year against South Africa, if the boks had played territory putting in huge bombs and grind down to a forward game i think they would have won it, but they had to score 4 tries and New Zealand thrive on these games. England just played it smart and tried to take any momentum out of the game, and it worked. New Zealand never looked like scoring until we had a man in the bin, and they are so ruthless that they will always score against 14 men.

Anyway my team for the 2nd test
1.Marler 2.Webber 3.Wilson 4.Lawes 5.Launchbury 6.Haskell 7.Robshaw 8.Morgan 9.Care 10.Burns 11.May 12.Eastmond 13.Tuilagi 14.Foden 15.Brown
16.Hartley 17.Mullan 18.Sinkler 19.Attwood 20.Vunipola 21.Dickson 22.Cipriani 23.Burrell

 

[goodNumber10]

I have no idea whether England would struggle in a faster paced game, but it was blatantly obvious that they were deliberately slowing the game down. There was clearly a reason for this. Personally I don't think England (or any other side) should be forced to play the game at a fast pace, but slowing the game down to a ridiculously slow pace is unacceptable in my opinion. People watch rugby to see teams playing rugby. The don't watch it to see players in huddles discussing tactics or trainers talking with players.......



I'm sure many NZ fans were frustrated about this, but again that is not the point. I seemed to spend more time in the 2nd half watching players / trainers huddling round talking than actually watching them play rugby. If this is what people want to watch fair enough, but it doesn't really do it for me....



I'm certainly not agreeing with everything Gregor Paul says. He did make a valid point for a change (England deliberately slowed down the match), but most of the article was just trolling rubbish as usual from him.

Which is more detrimental to the spectacle of the game?

Slowing it down between set piece when it's your own put in. Then playing with pace and continuity.

Or!

Deliberately killing the opponents quality ball by lazy running through the 9's passing lines as smith and retallick continually did, tugging shirts off the ball etc... Coming in the side of rucks or wheeling the scrum one the ball is in?

 

[squirrel]

might be way off here but whats happened to matthew tait is he even close to making the English team, thata guy had some serious gas

 

[nickdnz]

I'm actually feeling pretty confident going into this game. I noticed England really weren't able to generate any kind of running rugby from setplays, so they resorted to kicking highballs which admittedly we fielded pretty sub par. When they ran the ball the number of times the defense pushed them back with a fast defensive wall - really meant they couldn't build any sustained pressure. I feel the ABs were their own worst enemies, but with Dagg rumored to be out I'm pretty excited for what we can do this game. I'm hoping for

1. Woodcock, 2. Coles, 3. Owen Franks, 4. Retallick, 5. Whitelock, 6. Kaino, 7. McCaw, 8. Read/Vito, 9. Aaron Smith, 10. Barrett, 11. Savea, 12. Fekitoa, 13. Conrad Smith, 14. Cory Jane, 15. Ben Smith. 16. Mealamu, 17. Ben Franks, 18. Faumuina, 19. Tuipulotu, 20. Vito, 21. Peranara, 22. Cruden, 23. Slade.

 

[Darwin]

tuggings more detrimental to the spectacle game?

Slowing it down between set piece when it's your own put in. Then playing with pace and continuity.

Or!

Deliberately killing the opponents quality ball by lazy running through the 9's passing lines as smith and retallick continually did, tugging shirts etc... Coming in the side of rucks or wheedling the scrum one the ball is in?

Of course killing the opponents ball with lazy running, tugging shirts, coming in the side of the ruck (all of which both sides did) is detrimental to a game of rugby. These are all penalty offenses, and if the ref is doing his job correctly teams should be punished for these actions. All I'm suggesting is that the ref should likewise prevent teams from continuously wasting time at every break in play. There is no need for a front-rower to go down at ever stoppage in play. There is no need to have a 30 second conference before every lineout. Perhaps this is common practice in English club rugby (I don't know as I don't watch it), but it is unlike anything I have seen at Super Rugby level this year, and I can't recall and AB's test in the last few seasons when the game has been slowed down to the extent it was on Saturday....

I'm actually feeling pretty confident going into this game. I noticed England really weren't able to generate any kind of running rugby from setplays, so they resorted to kicking highballs which admittedly we fielded pretty sub par. When they ran the ball the number of times the defense pushed them back with a fast defensive wall - really meant they couldn't build any sustained pressure. I feel the ABs were their own worst enemies, but with Dagg rumored to be out I'm pretty excited for what we can do this game. I'm hoping for

1. Woodcock, 2. Coles, 3. Owen Franks, 4. Retallick, 5. Whitelock, 6. Kaino, 7. McCaw, 8. Read/Vito, 9. Aaron Smith, 10. Barrett, 11. Savea, 12. Fekitoa, 13. Conrad Smith, 14. Cory Jane, 15. Ben Smith. 16. Mealamu, 17. Ben Franks, 18. Faumuina, 19. Tuipulotu, 20. Vito, 21. Peranara, 22. Cruden, 23. Slade.

Like you I'm rather confident going into this match. Indeed I'm probably more confident than I was going into the 1st test! We played very poorly in the 1st test but still won - we should be better this week. Much better. If we get rid of Dagg and get Savea and Read back (or play Vito at 8) I think we will be far better. We do need to tweak our game-plan a bit too (stop kicking the bloody ball would be a good start) and it would help if we would catch the ball, but it wouldn't surprise me if we won by 20 this weekend....

 

[Gena_ZA]

Which is more detrimental to the spectacle of the game?

Slowing it down between set piece when it's your own put in. Then playing with pace and continuity.

Or!

Deliberately killing the opponents quality ball by lazy running through the 9's passing lines as smith and retallick continually did, tugging shirts off the ball etc... Coming in the side of rucks or wheeling the scrum one the ball is in?

Gloves off...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

might be way off here but whats happened to matthew tait is he even close to making the English team, thata guy had some serious gas

age and injury concerns is against him but imo one of the form Full Backs in England, watching the AP SF Tait was one of the standouts until he got injured.

If Tait was 24 and didn't have injury problems would put him on par with Foden tbh.

 

[nzlizard]

Which is more detrimental to the spectacle of the game?

Slowing it down between set piece when it's your own put in. Then playing with pace and continuity.

Or!

Deliberately killing the opponents quality ball by lazy running through the 9's passing lines as smith and retallick continually did, tugging shirts off the ball etc... Coming in the side of rucks or wheeling the scrum one the ball is in?

:redcard: