[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (2nd Test)

[Ragey Erasmus]

Interesting game.

No disrespect to England but the scoreline does flatter them. The 2nd try was complete BS, complete referee botch up that actually deserves some explanation from those involved and a final try when the game was out of reach to get within 1 point.

England still played well and if anything showed they are at least in reach of An All Black side which can be a bit rusty in the June tests.

~16 wins in a row and losing their Aura? If you say so buddy

How Close is Brodie Retalick from being the best lock in the world? He's been epic these first two tests.

Not just that try call but the reffing in general seemed to go against the All Blacks, and they seemed to get punished for having a dominant scrum which was total BS as well. Yes the All Blacks do have games the refs do seem to favor them, just pointing out that this game was definitely the other way around. Most of the games the All Blacks get the rub of the green on are ones they win by 20+ points and it didn't affect the result anyway.

Ben Smith...

Yes I know I love the guy, have done for years.

I think hes basically been the best and most consistent player in the world for the last 3 years IMO. Its a shame he has not had more chances in his best position. Its a shame he has not been an All Black regular as he should have been since 2008. No one could argue looking back now that the selection of Toeava ahead of him for so long was valid.

This game should be the breaking point for him. Hansen and Foster should have no choice now other than to give him ownership of the 15 jersey.

Sorry but there is no way in hell the AB scrum was dominant. Also the England yellow was harsh (during which a try was scored). Reffing was poor but I hardly feel it favoured England, we had a fair few decisions go against us, he never once pinged the ABs for forward passes. After the reffing performance last week I find it laughable that the ABs can complain about reffing being against them at all.

 

[Big Ewis]

kiwi fans will find absolutely anything in the aftermath of a match they've either lost or that came way too close down the wire, in which case anything goes so they can lighten their consciences over why their beloved All-Blacks had such difficulty. There is always literature that follows a NZ match if the AB didn't crush a team by 30 or more. By default. You can count on them. Even if it seems hard to find, give em a moment, they'll fetch you something worth the read.

 

[smartcooky]

Sorry but there is no way in hell the AB scrum was dominant.

I agree. Honours were about even in my book, and IMO the AB's were correctly penalised for not driving straight and walking the scrum around

Also the England yellow was harsh (during which a try was scored).

It may have been harsh, but it was fair...

1. The referee did not call "maul", and at this level it is always called. These are professional players who should know better.

2. The referee twice told him to release. Even if Farrell thought it was maul, he should still not have ignored the call to release.

Last week, many English posters were complaining about how Fekitoa didn't get a YC in a near-identical situation. If Fekitoa's was a YC then so was Farrell's; if Farrell's wasn't as YC, then nor was Fekitoa's. They can't have it both ways.

...he never once pinged the ABs for forward passes.

Which passes are you claiming were forward? A pass isn't forward just because Chris Robshaw waves his arms about and gives the AR a mouthful!!

 

[austingtir]

We lost two on the feed according to the stats.. i didnt even notice it personally. England is nearly always going to shade us in the scrum... unless we find another Carl Hayman. (come back Carl all is forgiven...) Under the circumstances I found our scrumaging acceptable. It certainly was not good enough last week. Woodcock was better but still needs to go take some anti aging pills before next year.

Has everybody seen the Smashed Em Bro hit by the security on the streaker... bloody hell Hansen should give that cheeky darky a call up. Damn near killed the guy.

 

[Larksea]

while the AB scrum was not dominant the whole game the period of the game they clearly were dominant they got nothing for it. If you say the scrum was even, but without knowing the stats on how the scrum penalties and free kicks went it seemed to favor the English. They would be interesting to see. The critical 50/50 scrum calls at important times went England's way even when the English pack struggled after being run around during the period where the All Blacks were strong.

 

[Larksea]

Sorry but there is no way in hell the AB scrum was dominant. Also the England yellow was harsh (during which a try was scored). Reffing was poor but I hardly feel it favoured England, we had a fair few decisions go against us, he never once pinged the ABs for forward passes. After the reffing performance last week I find it laughable that the ABs can complain about reffing being against them at all.

nothing tops being awarded a critical try where the ball did not even find grass. I notice you kinda failed to mention that one.

 

[nzlizard]

kiwi fans will find absolutely anything in the aftermath of a match they've either lost or that came way too close down the wire, in which case anything goes so they can lighten their consciences over why their beloved All-Blacks had such difficulty. There is always literature that follows a NZ match if the AB didn't crush a team by 30 or more. By default. You can count on them. Even if it seems hard to find, give em a moment, they'll fetch you something worth the read.

Why hello big general sweeping statement, I think sometimes you need to think before you type.

Sorry but there is no way in hell the AB scrum was dominant. Also the England yellow was harsh (during which a try was scored). Reffing was poor but I hardly feel it favoured England, we had a fair few decisions go against us, he never once pinged the ABs for forward passes. After the reffing performance last week I find it laughable that the ABs can complain about reffing being against them at all.

The scrum was even for me, no team got ascendency, I felt our scrum was better than last week though.

The card was harsh, esp given no general warning, IMO teams should get a general warning 1st, however professionals know the limit and like to push it to set boundaries with the ref, McCaw is master of this.

I didn't have too much fault with the referee and his performance, at the end of the day they are only human and make mistakes, if you count the refs mistakes against the entire game and then look at how much he has to see and rely on his touch judges I think they do a good job in general.

The one thing I don't see is too many England fans admitting the second try was not a try, in fact a few pages back goodnumber10 said England scored 3 good tries and I won't talk about the 2nd try. How blatantly biased is that?

 

[Maverick1987]

Why hello big general sweeping statement, I think sometimes you need to think before you type.



The scrum was even for me, no team got ascendency, I felt our scrum was better than last week though.

The card was harsh, esp given no general warning, IMO teams should get a general warning 1st, however professionals know the limit and like to push it to set boundaries with the ref, McCaw is master of this.

I didn't have too much fault with the referee and his performance, at the end of the day they are only human and make mistakes, if you count the refs mistakes against the entire game and then look at how much he has to see and rely on his touch judges I think they do a good job in general.

The one thing I don't see is too many England fans admitting the second try was not a try, in fact a few pages back goodnumber10 said England scored 3 good tries and I won't talk about the 2nd try. How blatantly biased is that?

The second try was fine to me perfectly placed on the floor !

There you go now you have something to talk about

 

[smartcooky]

The second try was fine to me perfectly placed on the floor !

There you go now you have something to talk about

You Brown Arm you!!


(see what I did there?)

 

[squirrel]

the fact is brown should have touched the ball down but he ran the dumbest angle, it was still a breach of the ABs defence though, thought the ref screwed up with the previous ruck but saying the ball wasn't out when it clearly was
overall the ref didn't affect the result both teams had their chances

 

[Peat]

nothing tops being awarded a critical try where the ball did not even find grass. I notice you kinda failed to mention that one.

Whacky yellow cards > Phantom tries ^_^

 

[nzlizard]

Whacky yellow cards > Phantom tries ^_^

Negative

Phantom tries put points on the board, wacky yellow cards create opportunity to put points on the board.

 

[goodNumber10]

Negative

Phantom tries put points on the board, wacky yellow cards create opportunity to put points on the board.

If you run through every scoring sequence you can find a reason to disallow the score and people will argue it.

It doesn't change the outcome of the game. England at no point look like winning so....

It's telling that in this whole thread the biggest discussion point is a try against the AB's, who won, and not the great rugby played by both sides.

 

[nzlizard]

If you run through every scoring sequence you can find a reason to disallow the score and people will argue it.

Not really, most are perfectly fine scoring plays.

Actually if you look at my little review of the test(page 19) it mentions nothing about the try, my frustration is with posts like this

Three good Try's (i don't care about discussing the TMO decision)

You are happy to point out other flaws all over the place but can't discuss it when it doesn't go how you want. If we saw an honest post from you every now and then maybe it would be different.

This is just my perception of you, you seem quite knowledgeably about rugby but you are very one eyed.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm not one eyed, I'm probably the least one eyed person here, and feel free to show me where i've pointed out flaws elsewhere - i'm pretty sure it's not half as much as you and SC make out.

My actual point there is that the approach work in that Brown try is what i'm interested and it was excellent and ultimately given so technically it WAS a try - all the England try's were well constructed, and i said before the game it was an important objective that England found ways to get across the whitewash - which they didn't do last week, but did this.

So all that means is I just don't want to discuss the grounding of the ball (which i did in the laws thread) - I've not moaned about any of the decisions in the game including things like Franks shepherding Nonu through that led directly to the first NZ penalty.

I'm just more interested in the process of playing rugby then dissecting the refs calls.

I honestly think you're purposefully misinterpreting what i say because I didn't want to agree with you and SC about last weeks decision.

 

[j-dawg]

I was there, great game to watch, great atmosphere.

There is plenty of overstatement on how good Nz were, and people saying England never looked like winning; I can tell you it didn't seem too far fetched down there. Both teams had opportunities to score, the difference was Nz took them. I think back to how many times England got so close to scoring, had we taken them it would have morphed into a very different game, but that is why nz are champs, they have the instinct to take those tries when the opportunities come knockin'.

Also this moaning about the ref; after last week I am astounded that some kiwi's can actually try and feel hard done by. Someone said we can't have it both ways and say Farrell's was not a yellow but last week New zealand should have got one for a near identical offense...what difference does it make? Both decisions were to New Zealands advantage (shocker) so whats the point in even trying to discuss it?

 

[Jack Reacher]

Interesting to read about the TMO decision for the Brown try, I said at the time it would be hard not to give it but didn't hear the part about the TMO allowing it due to an English arm under the ball!? Surely that should be looked at?
I've spent most of the weekend being told 'You guys were lucky again' as a UK resident Kiwi - and the 'paper readers' don't seem to get how you can still have a dominant 1 point victory. Much better from NZ this week but still in Super Rugby mode where teams switch on, switch off at times - need to stay focused for 80 mins.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Which passes are you claiming were forward? A pass isn't forward just because Chris Robshaw waves his arms about and gives the AR a mouthful!!

There was certainly one by Owen Franks in the first half that even the Kiwi commentators said was forward, I.e. franks hands were pointing forward when he passed the ball and the ball was propelled forward. If I can find it on video again I'll post it up.

But, I've come to realise with this game it's what you can get away with.

I also agree with Kiwi fans here that the English second try was not a try. It never touched the grass because Brown's hand clearly held it up and there was no evidence that any tip of the ball touched the ground before hand and he was then rolled on his back by Jane. Also it was bizarre beforehand when Robshaw placed the ball on the ground after a ruck, and the ref told AB players not to touch it (it was out and should be a 50:50 ball) then Robshaw pulls the ball back into the ruck. Surely that's a knock on??

I think all fans on both sides want is consistency in the decisions.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

There were two or three forward passes in one movement, down the right hand side of the field, if I'm not mistaken... Probably early in the second half.

 

[goodNumber10]

To be fair there were lots of things that happened in the game that if you only look at the negative aspects of a teams play you'll pick up.

For the AB's shepherding both the defenders and blocking chasers (which England also did), coming around offside and collapsing the maul, hooking before the ball was in and so on and so on....

England's transition defence was offside a lot. some tackles without the arm. The list can go on and on.