[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (2nd Test)

[austingtir]

At 1:33 on the tube video the ball clearly rolls (well maybe not roll the england support has overshot and exposed it) out of the England ruck. And ROBSHAW lying on the ground clearly pulls it back in!!!! Its a complete load of crap!!! The Ref calls advantage..... its the most bizarre piece of bullcrap play iv seen in years.

 

[Darwin]

Right, so I've watched the game now:
How is that not a penalty against Ben Smith when he takes down Tuilagi after his 70m run? There's no clear release: He has at least one hand on him at all times before going for the ball.
Genuine question.
Even if he didn't jackle the ball (looks like he did) he still got up and cleared out Brown, without "releasing" Tuilagi.


Brown is clearly held up for his try as well. No doubt in my mind.
Maybe the referee's felt sorry for him because Brown could've easily scored if he hadn't have cut back inside.

I'm clearly biased in this situation (not because it is the AB's, but because of the player (/god?) involved), but I think Smith clearly released Tuilagi. Using the most sophisticated technology I possess (youtube videos, screen printing, paint) I will show you below:

1. Ben Smith tackles Tuilagi
View attachment 3017
2. Ben Smith gets to his feet and has clearly released Tuilagi
View attachment 3018
3. Tuilagi attempts to get up again, so Ben Smith does a handstand to assert his authority before stealing the ball
View attachment 3019

The key was that Ben Smith moved so quickly it could not be picked up by the human eye in real-time. He is that good

Darwin and I will be accepting apology cash from now on, we've been advocating "smith for 15" for the last four years!...feeling pretty smug

While I can't deny I do feel a little smug, I'm probably more frustrated. As you say he should have been the AB's 15 for a number of seasons, but we've missed out on so many opportunities to see his brilliance in Black The more frustrating this is that you can be assured that he will be shifted back to the wing the moment Dagg gets back to full fitness.....

 

[nickdnz]

Firstly I would like to say England played a great more complete game of rugby in this test than the last game, but I think a 1 point score line really flattered them. Not because they weren't good, but the All Blacks in my opinion played very well, particularly the backs. I think the referee made some absurd calls. No evidence in my opinion to suggest Mike Brown grounded the ball, and even worse the was a ruck where it seemed NZ had five playerrs who pushed over the ball, but weren't allowed to go for it despite it being well behind the last English players leg. The refereeing in general was pretty diabolical.

Regardless I'm happier with the 1 point victory than the 5 point one from the other week. Ben Smith was phenomenal, and while it's his skill which was in part the reason he looked so good, what more more evident was his attitude. He did things at pace, he ran the ball back instead of slowly jogging up to the line, trying a predictable goose step before getting tackled well behind the line of retreating players. He was an energizer bunny, which is wasted on the wing as he's not really a winger. If Dagg comes back I'll be ****** (although Ben Smith's lack of a great kicking game will count against him - where as Punty McDagg will be included just for that reason).

I thought Conrad Smith was also outstanding. Almost perfect. His tackles were perfect, in fact he pretty much contained everyone who tried to go through the midfield. He ran beautiful lines and his passing was great, that pass to Nonu on the wing was class. Nonu was sightly mixed, his defense wasn't outstanding and he seemed to continue to try his kicking game too much - he gave away some fairly cynical penalties again - but at least when he did run with the ball he looked more like the Nonu of old. Savea was good on the wing, continues his try scoring form against England.

Messam didn't impress me much at 6 this game, I'm really hoping to see Read return with Kaino at 6.

 

[William18]

Ben Smith clearly released Tuilagi for me. The release only has to be a period of time where you let go of the tackled player. Barrett is maybe touching Tuilagi the whole time but he is not grabbing hold of him. He had plenty of time to release the ball (and did so).

 

[smartcooky]

How is that not a penalty against Ben Smith when he takes down Tuilagi after his 70m run? There's no clear release: He has at least one hand on him at all times before going for the ball.
Genuine question.
Even if he didn't jackle the ball (looks like he did) he still got up and cleared out Brown, without "releasing" Tuilagi.

Its not a penalty because Ben Smith completely complied with the Law, he tackles, released as he got to his feet, and then went for the ball

[video=dailymotion;x1zhqyd]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zhqyd_movi0023_sport[/video]
Here's the slo-mo

Here's the tackle

Here's the clear release

Here's the jackle

 

[squirrel]

Conrad smith was decent, but lets not forget he bungled one pass badly, everyone gave eastmond grief for stuffing up one pass

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

[video=dailymotion;x1zhqyd]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zhqyd_movi0023_sport[/video]
Here's the slo-mo

Here's the tackle

Here's the clear release

Here's the jackle

Could be an argument made that Smith wasn't supporting his own body weight when he went for the steal?

Personally, I thought it was a 50/50 call at the time. Tuilagi also looked to try get up before releasing the ball, which would've been a penalty too. I didn't see any replays though, and wasn't completely focused on the rugby!

 

[nickdnz]

Conrad smith was decent, but lets not forget he bungled one pass badly, everyone gave eastmond grief for stuffing up one pass

Which pass? There was one which went wide, but was dropped by Jane - but the pass was fine...the catch was poor.

 

[Darwin]

Which pass? There was one which went wide, but was dropped by Jane - but the pass was fine...the catch was poor.

I believe he was referring to the one he threw miles over the top of an unmarked Messam's head. It was 12 minutes in the 2nd half (about 5 minutes after a different Smith similarly blew a try by ignoring an unmarked Messam....).

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Which pass? There was one which went wide, but was dropped by Jane - but the pass was fine...the catch was poor.

There was one to Messam which was pretty awful, actually very similar to the linebreak that led to Nonu's try. The pass was a bit more difficult, admittedly, but Smith is the kind of person to pull it off regardless.

Twice, actually, Messam was on the right touch line and would've scored if he had received the ball, but alas Conrad's pass wasn't great and Aaron Smith's pass was non-existent.

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm clearly biased in this situation (not because it is the AB's, but because of the player (/god?) involved), but I think Smith clearly released Tuilagi. Using the most sophisticated technology I possess (youtube videos, screen printing, paint) I will show you below:

1. Ben Smith tackles Tuilagi
View attachment 3017
2. Ben Smith gets to his feet and has clearly released Tuilagi
View attachment 3018
3. Tuilagi attempts to get up again, so Ben Smith does a handstand to assert his authority before stealing the ball
View attachment 3019

The key was that Ben Smith moved so quickly it could not be picked up by the human eye in real-time. He is that good

yeah i got no problem with that, he tackled and worked hard to get up and over the ball, what looks like clearing out Brown is him picking the ball up and starting to drive.

Text book steal - he had a great game.

Don't think the ref had a bad game, yes yellow was harsh but we benefited from a couple of arguable calls - such is life.

consolation try at the end gave us a good score line but New Zealand were a score better than us yesterday.


Lastly please take the law discussions to the law thread....

 

[goodNumber10]

Rugby 365 player Ratings:

England: http://www.rugby365.com/article/60597-player-ratings-inches-away

15 Mike Brown: 6/10
14 Manusamoa Tuilagi: 7/10
13 Luther Burrell: 7/10
12 Billy Twelvetrees: 6/10
11 Marland Yarde: 7/10
10 Owen Farrell: 5/10
9 Danny Care: 6/10
8 Ben Morgan: 4/10
7 Chris Robshaw: 7/10
6 Tom Wood: 5/10
5 Geoff Parling: 9/10
4 Joe Launchbury: 5/10
3 David Wilson: 7/10
2 Rob Webber: 6/10
1 Joe Marler: 3/10

Replacements:

16 Dylan Hartley 5/10
17 Matt Mullan (on for Marler, 71st minute) Not enough time to be rated.
18 Kieran Brookes (on for Wilson, 76th minute) Not enough time to be rated.
19 Courtney Lawes (on for Launchbury, 57th minute) 6/10
20 Billy Vunipola (on for Morgan, 57th minute) 4/10
21 Ben Youngs (on for Care, 71st minute) 5/10
22 Freddie Burns. Not used
23 Chris Ashton (on for Burrell, 74 minute) scored a consolation try with an unnecessary dive. 5/10
(this is his unnecessary dive - FFS!: http://youtu.be/14WLl0ZNvd4?t=7m7s )

New Zealand: http://www.rugby365.com/article/60596-player-ratings-ben-smith-show

15 Ben Smith: 9/10
14 Cory Jane: 6/10
13 Conrad Smith: 8/10
12 Ma'a Nonu: 8/10
11 Julian Savea: 7/10
10 Aaron Cruden: 5/10
9 Aaron Smith: 6/10
8 Jerome Kaino: 4/10
7 Richie McCaw: 5/10
6 Liam Messam: 5/10
5 Sam Whitelock: 7/10
4 Brodie Retallick: 7/10
3 Owen Franks: 6/10
2 Dane Coles: 6/10
1 Tony Woodcock: 6/10

Replacements:

16 Keven Mealamu: (on in the 60th minute) 6/10
17 Wyatt Crockett: (on in the 65th minute) 6/10
18 Charlie Faumuina: (on in the 65th minute) 5/10
19 Patrick Tuipulotu: (on in the 76th minute)
20 Victor Vito: (on in the 65th minute) 7/10
21 TJ Perenara: (on in the 76th minute) Not enough time to be rated.
22 Beauden Barrett: (on in the 51st minute) 8/10
23 Malakai Fekitoa: Not used

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Wow. Those NZ loose forwards.

 

[goodNumber10]

Wow. Those NZ loose forwards.

yeah, seems a bit harsh - thought McCaw was off his game today, but i can only think they scored so low due to the 1st half.

On fairness they also five the Englsih loosies a tonking as well.

 

[Peat]

The refereeing in general was pretty diabolical.

Really can't agree with that and if nothing else, it was a big step up on Nige last week.

edit: Those Rugby 365 ratings are retarded and that's all there is to be said.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

[video=dailymotion;x1zhqyd]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1zhqyd_movi0023_sport[/video]
Here's the slo-mo

Here's the tackle

Here's the clear release

Here's the jackle

Aha! My mistake then, you can definitely see the release on that slow-mo. I thought he still had a hand on him, in real time,

 

[Peat]

Could be an argument made that Smith wasn't supporting his own body weight when he went for the steal?

Personally, I thought it was a 50/50 call at the time. Tuilagi also looked to try get up before releasing the ball, which would've been a penalty too. I didn't see any replays though, and wasn't completely focused on the rugby!

Nah, watch the video back and I'd say he clearly is on his feet, unless you count him planting his hands on the deck right at the start, which I wouldn't.

If anything the grabs are more misleading than the video

 

[Tony Manx]

My only comments are that the ref and other officials have a split second and no replay (unless they go to the TMO - not something I would want to see for every incident) to make their decisions and they will all make mistakes and/or we will all have different opinions, with the benefit of endless replays and consideration, on whether they were right or wrong in those split second decisions. However, when the decision has been made, that is it and the score is what it is no matter what we feel about it!

New Zealand were by far the better team, they know it, the English team know it, we know it and whether it was by one point, 11 points or 111 points is surely irrelevant as they just were!!

The only thing remaining after any match is for the official panel to assess the level of competence of the referee and determine what to do about it if it falls short! I can assure you no amount of comment here will be taken into account for that!

 

[smartcooky]

Lastly please take the law discussions to the law thread....

If you are going to criticise the referee in a match or question his rulings (and you do so frequently) then Law discussions become an inevitable consequence of that. As such, Law discussions that pertain to a match belong in the match thread.

If you don't like law discussions, then don't read them or participate in them.

Lastly, who the hell are you to decide what others can and cannot discuss in any particular thread? Others here have told me that they appreciate the insights from an experienced referee. Just because you don't doesn't give you the right to dictate to others what they can and cannot do here.

 

[smartcooky]

Nah, watch the video back and I'd say he clearly is on his feet, unless you count him planting his hands on the deck right at the start, which I wouldn't.

If anything the grabs are more misleading than the video

Referees regard this type of jackle as different from one where an "Other Player" (Law 15.6) arrives at the tackle through the gate.

In this situation, the Tackler has, as per the Law, taken the ball carrier to ground and gone to ground himself (which he must, or he is not a tackler). Referees allow the tackler the latitude to use his hands/arms to bring stabilise himself back on his feet (you try lying on the ground and then getting up without putting your arms/hands on the ground)

However, the situation with an "Other Player" arriving at the tackle is that he is must already be on his feet, so putting his hands on the ground would be going off his feet.

In this case, if you watch the video, you'll see Smith almost "bounces" back to his feet, hardly using his hands, if at all, but it all happens so quickly that the referee will allow that.